4 ms·

"Just pronounce it the way it's spelled" might make sense in some languages, and it probably makes a lot of sense in Russian, say, where the person who transcri

by bloak 5y ago

"Just pronounce it the way it's spelled" might make sense in some languages, and it probably makes a lot of sense in Russian, say, where the person who transcribed a name from Latin letters has already decided how it should be (mis)pronounced (though the position of the stress makes a big difference in Russian), but it doesn't make sense in English because the spelling is rather inconsistent even if you're looking just at ordinary everyday words like "machine", "chemical", "bough", "cough", "put", "but", whatever.

rendall 5y ago
Yes. This confusion of spellings is due to English having a long history of literacy. The k in knock is silent, but once was pronounced. The pronunciation of knock changed but its spelling did not. Nevertheless, there are historical reasons for these various spellings, its not just "whatever". In any case, these are English words, not foreign words. English words follow specific conventions. This is why English speakers who read "bruschetta" will not pronounce the ch with a hard k, as Italians do. Unless they are told this pronunciation is "incorrect". If it's really important to bruschetta marketers that English speakers pronounce it the way Italians do, they should consider spelling it using English conventions, eg brusketa As you pointed out, English spelling is confusing. We don't need to add to the cognitive load by insisting that words spelled according to foreign conventions be pronounced that way too
- SamBam 5y ago
  You have it backwards. Pronunciation in English does not follow many strict conventions -- and when it does it doesn't do so consistently -- and it's precisely because it's taken on so many loan-words and kept something close to the original pronounciation. You suggest "ch" should be pronounced as in "cheese" in English. Well, what about chemistry, christian, school, alchemy, anarchy, anchor, chaos, archeology, echo, and literally hundreds of other words in English with a hard "ch"? Yes, unless a child is told that pronouncing them with a soft "ch" is "incorrect" they will pronounce all those words incorrectly if they come across them written down. Such is the burden of the English language, the language with the least consistent spelling-to-pronunciation rules on Earth. Yes, English spelling is not regular. It's mostly from all those loanwords. It's unfortunate, and is the cause of such weirdly quirky Anglophone things such as "spelling tests" in schools, and "spelling bees" where one can win a modicum of fame and money -- they don't have this in other alphabetic languages. But's it's the way it is and refusing to pronounce words correctly isn't taking some kind of principled stand. (Or should we say, for all those, "If it's really important to schoolteachers that English speakers pronounce it the way Italians do, they should consider spelling it using English conventions, eg skool"?)
  - rendall 5y ago
    > refusing to pronounce words correctly That's skewing the argument. The discussion is "should English speakers be expected to pronounce foreign words as they are pronounced in the original language"? Not "pronouncing words as foreigners do is the correct pronunciation when speaking English" Despite the stereotype, it's not Americans running around telling foreigners how to pronounce English words in their native tongue. No American tells Poles how to pronounce New York nor Yoruba how to pronounce jazz nor Italians how to pronounce pepperoni.
    - SamBam 5y ago
      > Despite the stereotype, it's not Americans running around telling foreigners how to pronounce English words in their native tongue. This seems to be the root of your annoyance, but it's also false. If an Italian said "President Bee-den" there would be plenty of Americans falling over themselves to let them know that it's pronounced "Bye-den." I've been there. I've experienced it.
      - rendall 5y ago
        Were they speaking Italian at the time, or English?
        SamBam 5y ago
        It doesn't matter, they'd try to pronounce it correctly. This whole thing is a strange strawman regarding your belief that other cultures pronounce things however that spelling would be pronounced in their country, but there's simply no citation for that. You brought up the pronunciation of "gnocchi." I have heard French people pronounce it while speaking French (I have travelled in France a lot). They pronounce it as the Italians do, while speaking French. How did they learn that? If a French kid saw the word spelled out the first time, and hadn't been taught Italian, they'd have no idea what to do with that "ch." (The "gn" would have been less confusing.) Yet they did pronounce it correctly, because, like most words, the word would generally have been learned orally. And if some French school kid started saying "gno-shi," his peers would have corrected them.
- nautilius 5y ago
  I don't know what conventions that would be, are you familiar with the poem 'The Chaos'? https://ncf.idallen.com/english.html https://ncf.idallen.com/english.html Just one example" " Just compare heart, beard, and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word, Sword and sward, retain and Britain. (Mind the latter, how it's written.) Now I surely will not plague you With such words as plaque and ague. But be careful how you speak: Say break and steak, but bleak and streak; Cloven, oven, how and low, Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe." It seems that any English speaker expecting a certain pronunciation from spelling alone would have quite a hard time.

by bloak 5y ago

rendall 5y ago

Yes. This confusion of spellings is due to English having a long history of literacy. The k in knock is silent, but once was pronounced. The pronunciation of knock changed but its spelling did not. Nevertheless, there are historical reasons for these various spellings, its not just "whatever". In any case, these are English words, not foreign words. English words follow specific conventions. This is why English speakers who read "bruschetta" will not pronounce the ch with a hard k, as Italians do. Unless they are told this pronunciation is "incorrect". If it's really important to bruschetta marketers that English speakers pronounce it the way Italians do, they should consider spelling it using English conventions, eg brusketa As you pointed out, English spelling is confusing. We don't need to add to the cognitive load by insisting that words spelled according to foreign conventions be pronounced that way too

SamBam 5y ago
You have it backwards. Pronunciation in English does not follow many strict conventions -- and when it does it doesn't do so consistently -- and it's precisely because it's taken on so many loan-words and kept something close to the original pronounciation. You suggest "ch" should be pronounced as in "cheese" in English. Well, what about chemistry, christian, school, alchemy, anarchy, anchor, chaos, archeology, echo, and literally hundreds of other words in English with a hard "ch"? Yes, unless a child is told that pronouncing them with a soft "ch" is "incorrect" they will pronounce all those words incorrectly if they come across them written down. Such is the burden of the English language, the language with the least consistent spelling-to-pronunciation rules on Earth. Yes, English spelling is not regular. It's mostly from all those loanwords. It's unfortunate, and is the cause of such weirdly quirky Anglophone things such as "spelling tests" in schools, and "spelling bees" where one can win a modicum of fame and money -- they don't have this in other alphabetic languages. But's it's the way it is and refusing to pronounce words correctly isn't taking some kind of principled stand. (Or should we say, for all those, "If it's really important to schoolteachers that English speakers pronounce it the way Italians do, they should consider spelling it using English conventions, eg skool"?)
- rendall 5y ago
  > refusing to pronounce words correctly That's skewing the argument. The discussion is "should English speakers be expected to pronounce foreign words as they are pronounced in the original language"? Not "pronouncing words as foreigners do is the correct pronunciation when speaking English" Despite the stereotype, it's not Americans running around telling foreigners how to pronounce English words in their native tongue. No American tells Poles how to pronounce New York nor Yoruba how to pronounce jazz nor Italians how to pronounce pepperoni.
  - SamBam 5y ago
    > Despite the stereotype, it's not Americans running around telling foreigners how to pronounce English words in their native tongue. This seems to be the root of your annoyance, but it's also false. If an Italian said "President Bee-den" there would be plenty of Americans falling over themselves to let them know that it's pronounced "Bye-den." I've been there. I've experienced it.
    - rendall 5y ago
      Were they speaking Italian at the time, or English?
      - SamBam 5y ago
        It doesn't matter, they'd try to pronounce it correctly. This whole thing is a strange strawman regarding your belief that other cultures pronounce things however that spelling would be pronounced in their country, but there's simply no citation for that. You brought up the pronunciation of "gnocchi." I have heard French people pronounce it while speaking French (I have travelled in France a lot). They pronounce it as the Italians do, while speaking French. How did they learn that? If a French kid saw the word spelled out the first time, and hadn't been taught Italian, they'd have no idea what to do with that "ch." (The "gn" would have been less confusing.) Yet they did pronounce it correctly, because, like most words, the word would generally have been learned orally. And if some French school kid started saying "gno-shi," his peers would have corrected them.
nautilius 5y ago
I don't know what conventions that would be, are you familiar with the poem 'The Chaos'? https://ncf.idallen.com/english.html https://ncf.idallen.com/english.html Just one example" " Just compare heart, beard, and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word, Sword and sward, retain and Britain. (Mind the latter, how it's written.) Now I surely will not plague you With such words as plaque and ague. But be careful how you speak: Say break and steak, but bleak and streak; Cloven, oven, how and low, Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe." It seems that any English speaker expecting a certain pronunciation from spelling alone would have quite a hard time.