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It’s probably true that the net salary is lower than some other comparable countries, although Denmark for example has also a quite low net salary. I feel the

It’s probably true that the net salary is lower than some other comparable countries, although Denmark for example has also a quite low net salary. I feel the important bit is what you get for the net salary deduction. In Germany you have: - Free Education including University - A decent mostly free health system, health care insurance - unemployment insurance so your life does not completely unravel if you are made redundant and others are dependent on your salary - elderly care insurance - child care (could be better) - police that is not completely reduced to the absolute minimum - infrastructure that mostly works All of this is not perfect by any means, but you do have the feeling to get something back for your deductions. YMMV In some other even well developed countries it often feels like public services run on a shoestring and are just enough not to collapse. And some public services are in my opinion easier achieved if the state runs them, like infrastructure, transport, health and welfare services or police/security. You can go with private services and the lowest bidder but my feeling is that’s a downward spiral of what you get out of it in the end. So if you feel you get adequate services or services that otherwise are difficult to achieve I think it’s ok to have a higher salary deduction. Obviously this is a quite subjective subject, not one sock fits all.

Akronymus 5y ago
Even if you take the gross salaray it is MUCH lower than what the company actually pays. Last time I looked it up, the company pays about as much in insurance, taxes and such as your gross is.
- realityking 5y ago
  That’s still an exaggeration. Non-wage labour costs are about 21% of the gross salary with most of them capped around 80k EUR of gross salary (meaning the employer pays 21% of 80k even if you make 200k). FWIW this includes health insurance. Now you do you have to count with some other potential expenses, like covering up to 6 weeks paid sick leave. I’m spire there’s some rule of thumb how to average that over a workforce but I’m not aware of it.
noisy_boy 5y ago
I would be _ecstatic_ to give up half of my salary for such a system which assures that irrespective of my employment/financial status, age or health, I'll get the care I need, until I die.
- shakezula 5y ago
  Same. For me in the states, the argument is an easy one, because the plan in the states is pretty much "sell your house to afford your medical bills even after insurance and hope you don't run out of cash before you die". Our cultural attitudes towards elder care are most glaringly obvious in our healthcare system.
- a254613e 5y ago
  Sounds great doesn't it? Too bad in reality with public insurance you get the basic care, while with private insurace (more equivalent to the US system) you get much more. For example you can find German news articles about how public insurance doesn't cover some tests that confirm/deny if you have some life threatning condition or not, even if you have all the symptoms and the doctors says that's the next step - while private insurance does cover additional tests. And private health insurance is only available to individuals earning well above the average German salary.
  - hogFeast 5y ago
    And Germany is one of the countries with relatively good public coverage. I am in the UK, we don't get medicine for some things because it is too expensive: HRT has been in shortage for years, we don't get most newer cancer drugs (it is unrelated to efficacy, it is just too expensive to treat people), epilepsy drugs are the same. Because drug prices here are so low, pharmacies get drugs, and then ship them to Europe to flip. I have relatives who are sick and don't get treated because it is NHS policy not to treat conditions properly (the most well-known one is CFS, the UK's approach to CFS/ME is...unique, and governed heavily by cost). And ofc, lots of money thrown into "cheaper interventions" like public health advertising (coincidentally, the people who run these campaigns are friends with people in the NHS...which is nice for them). Mental health is another area: too expensive, massive underinvestment, even today most of the mental health system is nurses who get a couple of weeks training from psychologists, psychologists are too expensive (somehow, almost no-one who studies psychology in the UK ends up doing clinical work). There is no trade-off. Someone has to pay because doctors don't work for free. The US has a relatively optimal system with targeted universal healthcare that is heavily subsidised by the wealthy. Germany is a derivative of that system with a relatively large private component that subsidises the rest of the system. It is far better to overproduce healthcare for the wealthy, then underproduce it for everyone else. Ofc, "free healthcare" sounds very nice (unless doctors start working for free, the cost of a US public health system would largely be what it is already...Medicare and Medicaid is cheaper...but not by much because doctor and nurses, for one, are relatively well paid...in the UK, nurses make the equivalent of $25k, again no trade-offs).
ulfw 5y ago
"A decent mostly free health system" Where in Germany is that? You either pay a lot for private insurance (especially when you get old) or you pay a lot for state-backed insurance (which is a lot if you earn above average as most techies do).
- oezi 5y ago
  Since insurance is capped at around 5k salary you will at most pay 15% of that (750 EUR) for health insurance per month in the universal insurance system. If you make higher salaries then you won't be affected.
  - pkaye 5y ago
    > Since insurance is capped at around 5k salary you will at most pay 15% of that (750 EUR) for health insurance per month in the universal insurance system. Does the employer pay any of that? Is that the total for the entire family?
    - suction 5y ago
      Yes, it includes your spouse and any number of children up to the age of 26 I think. So the classical family model with a stay-home spouse and children will be covered by the breadwinner's health insurance. If any family member works full-time, then they have to cover their own health insurance. Exceptions apply. If you make more than 40.000 EUR / year you have the option to get a private insurance policy with more "benefits". Then, the employer will pay out the amount that went to the public health system and you will use it (and whatever you can afford on top) to your private health insurance. When you go private, you're in the wild west, meaning you'll need to be extremely cautious of what contracts you sign. Or you'll end up with a 3000 EUR per month plan at old age, with no way back into the public system. Many people end up poor after retirement because their whole 401k and savings go towards the health insurance which is way to luxurious for their needs and isn't capped.
  - rattray 5y ago
    Is that 750 EUR for an individual or a family? Sounds like a lot. For comparison in California, a 35-year-old SF resident earning $250k/yr living alone purchasing insurance through the public marketplace can get a Platinum-level Kaiser Permanente HMO plan for around $650/mo (but over $2000/mo for a family of four). YMMV but I've found KP's service quality to be extremely high, and that plan comes with $0 annual deductible and very low copays.
dmichulke 5y ago
> child care (could be better) Dresden child care is specifically good and affordable, probably due to Eastern German (Socialist) heritage. It's also has one of the highest number of kids per family.

Akronymus 5y ago

Even if you take the gross salaray it is MUCH lower than what the company actually pays. Last time I looked it up, the company pays about as much in insurance, taxes and such as your gross is.

realityking 5y ago
That’s still an exaggeration. Non-wage labour costs are about 21% of the gross salary with most of them capped around 80k EUR of gross salary (meaning the employer pays 21% of 80k even if you make 200k). FWIW this includes health insurance. Now you do you have to count with some other potential expenses, like covering up to 6 weeks paid sick leave. I’m spire there’s some rule of thumb how to average that over a workforce but I’m not aware of it.

noisy_boy 5y ago

I would be _ecstatic_ to give up half of my salary for such a system which assures that irrespective of my employment/financial status, age or health, I'll get the care I need, until I die.

shakezula 5y ago
Same. For me in the states, the argument is an easy one, because the plan in the states is pretty much "sell your house to afford your medical bills even after insurance and hope you don't run out of cash before you die". Our cultural attitudes towards elder care are most glaringly obvious in our healthcare system.
a254613e 5y ago
Sounds great doesn't it? Too bad in reality with public insurance you get the basic care, while with private insurace (more equivalent to the US system) you get much more. For example you can find German news articles about how public insurance doesn't cover some tests that confirm/deny if you have some life threatning condition or not, even if you have all the symptoms and the doctors says that's the next step - while private insurance does cover additional tests. And private health insurance is only available to individuals earning well above the average German salary.
- hogFeast 5y ago
  And Germany is one of the countries with relatively good public coverage. I am in the UK, we don't get medicine for some things because it is too expensive: HRT has been in shortage for years, we don't get most newer cancer drugs (it is unrelated to efficacy, it is just too expensive to treat people), epilepsy drugs are the same. Because drug prices here are so low, pharmacies get drugs, and then ship them to Europe to flip. I have relatives who are sick and don't get treated because it is NHS policy not to treat conditions properly (the most well-known one is CFS, the UK's approach to CFS/ME is...unique, and governed heavily by cost). And ofc, lots of money thrown into "cheaper interventions" like public health advertising (coincidentally, the people who run these campaigns are friends with people in the NHS...which is nice for them). Mental health is another area: too expensive, massive underinvestment, even today most of the mental health system is nurses who get a couple of weeks training from psychologists, psychologists are too expensive (somehow, almost no-one who studies psychology in the UK ends up doing clinical work). There is no trade-off. Someone has to pay because doctors don't work for free. The US has a relatively optimal system with targeted universal healthcare that is heavily subsidised by the wealthy. Germany is a derivative of that system with a relatively large private component that subsidises the rest of the system. It is far better to overproduce healthcare for the wealthy, then underproduce it for everyone else. Ofc, "free healthcare" sounds very nice (unless doctors start working for free, the cost of a US public health system would largely be what it is already...Medicare and Medicaid is cheaper...but not by much because doctor and nurses, for one, are relatively well paid...in the UK, nurses make the equivalent of $25k, again no trade-offs).

ulfw 5y ago

"A decent mostly free health system" Where in Germany is that? You either pay a lot for private insurance (especially when you get old) or you pay a lot for state-backed insurance (which is a lot if you earn above average as most techies do).

oezi 5y ago
Since insurance is capped at around 5k salary you will at most pay 15% of that (750 EUR) for health insurance per month in the universal insurance system. If you make higher salaries then you won't be affected.
- pkaye 5y ago
  > Since insurance is capped at around 5k salary you will at most pay 15% of that (750 EUR) for health insurance per month in the universal insurance system. Does the employer pay any of that? Is that the total for the entire family?
  - suction 5y ago
    Yes, it includes your spouse and any number of children up to the age of 26 I think. So the classical family model with a stay-home spouse and children will be covered by the breadwinner's health insurance. If any family member works full-time, then they have to cover their own health insurance. Exceptions apply. If you make more than 40.000 EUR / year you have the option to get a private insurance policy with more "benefits". Then, the employer will pay out the amount that went to the public health system and you will use it (and whatever you can afford on top) to your private health insurance. When you go private, you're in the wild west, meaning you'll need to be extremely cautious of what contracts you sign. Or you'll end up with a 3000 EUR per month plan at old age, with no way back into the public system. Many people end up poor after retirement because their whole 401k and savings go towards the health insurance which is way to luxurious for their needs and isn't capped.
- rattray 5y ago
  Is that 750 EUR for an individual or a family? Sounds like a lot. For comparison in California, a 35-year-old SF resident earning $250k/yr living alone purchasing insurance through the public marketplace can get a Platinum-level Kaiser Permanente HMO plan for around $650/mo (but over $2000/mo for a family of four). YMMV but I've found KP's service quality to be extremely high, and that plan comes with $0 annual deductible and very low copays.

dmichulke 5y ago

> child care (could be better) Dresden child care is specifically good and affordable, probably due to Eastern German (Socialist) heritage. It's also has one of the highest number of kids per family.