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I find it surprising that they are choosing Germany - after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there (embroiling it in so much red

I find it surprising that they are choosing Germany - after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there (embroiling it in so much red tape that Elon wishes he could pull out if it weren't for sunk cost). It seems that Germany has a very good ability to convince and lobby these mega-manufacturers to base themselves there, but a very poor ability to actually let them succeed after making that decision. TSMC would be wiser to invest in the UK - where there is a strong political will to remove barriers to entry - and it is of course where ARM are already based and therefore has a very strong overlap of skills. There is also far less likelihood of exports being restricted during a possible future crisis by the political whims of failed politicians i.e. it is a politically more stable bet.

flohofwoe 5y ago
There's a bit of a "silicon cluster" around Dresden in Germany going all the way back to the late 60s and 70s (the GDR had pretty impressive chip manufacturing capabilities for such a small country on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain). Also regarding the "red tape", this depends a lot on the state you're in. Brandenburg/Berlin vs Saxony/Thuringia/Bavaria can be very different in that regard (of course it depends a lot on the local government that's currently in place).
kall 5y ago
I think the government considers semiconductors a key industry to compete with china and I believe that matters. American electric car manufacturers on the other hand are a threat to germany's combustion obsessed car industry. I also think that Elon runs his companies in an unconventional way that maybe doesn‘t fly with german bureaucrats. TSMC will do things by the book and the saxonian government will welcome them with open arms. They won‘t see any of the local government trouble that Tesla had in Dresden.
estaseuropano 5y ago
Germany has dozens of chip manufacturers and great engineering workforce. Certainly much better than UK. Have not seen any wupte about Tesla wanting to pull out, but the factory is already half operational so seems most issues are resolved. Once located it should also be easier to do this kind of projects, but planting a new huge factory is always a challenge.
fundatus 5y ago
Well, the UK just willingly put up giant trade barriers with their biggest trading partner. Doesn't really scream "free trade" to most people outside the UK. There is a reason why annual foreign direct investment into the UK almost halved (!) after the Brexit referendum. Probably one of the main reasons why TSMC doesn't consider the UK for this. Also skilled immmigration to Germany is MUCH easier compared to the UK, which also plays in huge role in these kind of projects.
- nbevans 5y ago
  The UK isn't even manning its customs posts for imports from the EU at present. And there is no tariffs on the vast majority of exports to the EU - and certainly not on semiconductors. FDI in 2020 was almost identical to France (albeit yes 2nd to France in 1st place) for Europe: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/07/uk-second-to-france-again-for-attracting-foreign-investment-in-europe-brexit-covid-19 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/07/uk-second-t... This is counter to your claims concerning FDI. I doubt it is "much easier" for skilled immigration - do you have anything to support that? How is it even measured?
  - fundatus 5y ago
    No one (apart from Brexiters) cares that much about tariffs. EU tariffs are some of the lowest in the world - the average applied tariff for imports into the EU in 2019 was just 1.88%. Compare that to 6% for India or 13% for the US. What really matters are non-tariff-barriers - and this is where the EU really excels. After all, that is what it was build for. FDI into the UK fell from 101,241m to just 59,137m USD in 2019. Your article doesn't look at the value of the investments but just the number of projects.
  - nbevans 5y ago
    "No one (apart from Brexiters) cares that much about tariffs. EU tariffs are some of the lowest in the world - the average applied tariff for imports into the EU in 2019 was just 1.88%. Compare that to 6% for India or 13% for the US." Bizarre comment. You initiated it by suggesting the UK has erected "giant trade barriers" but then reply saying nobody cares about trade tariffs? And then immediately in the second sentence go on to compare trade tariffs globally? What exactly is your point as it isn't really cutting across?
rsynnott 5y ago
> after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there Requiring it to follow the rules? As a portion of GDP, manufacturing is a bigger part of Germany's economy than nearly any other developed country. It is even higher as a portion of GDP than _China_ (edit not China, see below). Pretty much everyone except Tesla seems to cope, so I'm inclined to assume that this is more a Tesla incompetence problem than a Germany problem. > There is also far less likelihood of exports being restricted during a possible future crisis by the political whims of failed politicians "What is Brexit?"
- nbevans 5y ago
  Dial down your tone - it is unwarranted. Rules and red tape was exactly my point. Why would TSMC choose to run that gauntlet willingly and potentially fall foul of the same hurdles that Tesla has encountered? One of the big problems Tesla had was around water supply. Do you have any idea how much water a chip fab uses? My point around export restrictions was in reference to the EU blocking vaccine exports this year because it suited them. There would be heavy incentives for them to do the same for semiconductors in a future supply crisis like there is right now.
  - fundatus 5y ago
    > My point around export restrictions was in reference to the EU blocking vaccine exports this year because it suited them. LMAO The EU blocks ONE vaccine shipment - while the UK and the US had export bans in place for months and now the EU is the bad guy. smh
    - detritus 5y ago
      The UK did NOT have vaccine export bans in place. Why is this a recurring meme on HN? Or, more pointedly - why are some people so eager to gleefully regurgitate such misinformation?
      - fundatus 5y ago
        It's not misinformation at all. The UK was just clever enough to hide the export ban in their contracts with AZ (unlike the US which did it more bluntly). The first xx million doses of vaccines manufactured in Oxford/Keele had to be supplied to the UK. Which is an export ban in all but name. But it gave the UK government the opportunity to claim that there was no export ban in place (even though nothing was exported for months).
nixass 5y ago
> after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there Yeah, the Walmart said the same in the 90s when they tried to concur Germany, only to miserably fail. The thing is that the Germany (and the EU as a whole) is no Wild West and there are actually rules, environmental responsibility and labor laws to follow.
- jansan 5y ago
  I am pretty sure the other reailers in Germany like Aldi and Lidl teamed up to prevent Walmart from getting a foothold. They are extremely strong and this for a reason. I went to Walmart in Jena when they opened their shop there and was really underwhelmed by what they had to offer.
  - LeanderK 5y ago
    Aldi and Lidl are even expanding their foothold in the US I think, so they are probably quite competitive
LatteLazy 5y ago
The uk is horrible political mess at the moment. God knows if we'll be able to import or export anything or keep the lights on next week. Not a great place to put a billion dollar global supply investment.
- randyb27 5y ago
  Chicken licken?
- blibble 5y ago
  do you even live in the UK? the political deadlock was completely resolved after the 2019 election... now the government has a huge majority and is rock solid politically (as is normally the case) other than some toilet roll shortages in March last year, there have been no visible issues whatsoever
  - LatteLazy 5y ago
    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19450687.brexit-scottish-customers-face-empty-shelves-lack-fresh-produce/ https://www.thenational.scot/news/19450687.brexit-scottish-c... Plus lorry drivers. And hospitality jobs. And god knows what else. And we're in the middle of pulling out of the deal we signed, because no one read the Northern Ireland section. Or they did and lied and now they're pretending otherwise. We can have all the elections we want, and you're right that Bojo has a solid majority. But that majority does nothing for our relationship with the EU. And it falls apart when the "have your cake" part notices the "eat your cake" part are eating all the cake. And that's without getting into the reliability of anyone in the current government (except maybe Sunak, he's doing rather well...).
    - blibble 5y ago
      I don't think The National can be considered a credible source on, well, anything really (the Daily Mail is less biased) in their picture there's... apparently been a run on weetabix, but then the picture below shows fully stocked shelves of fruit and vegetables? honestly, I don't know why I've even bothered responding
MarcusE1W 5y ago
By strong political will to remove barriers you mean that certain politicians with the right motives (whatever that might be) are willing to wave any legal barriers ? Not sure I see this as a good thing. And with regards to political whims, From the outside it seems that is the specialty of the UK right now. Right now, in my view the UK does not look like a stable international partner, it could go in any direction, who knows ?
- nbevans 5y ago
  Remove barriers - as in, get the planning permits issued, provide necessary tax or subsidy incentives etc, all the standard stuff that goes on when attracting a mega-manufacturer such as TSMC. You are based in London so your view of the UK's international perception is probably about as useless as mine (also based in London). Taiwan and the UK have good relations - arguably better than Taiwan / EU - there is a longer term geopolitical instability with the EU more recently tilting towards Russia (Nordstream) and China (controversial investment deal signed in January) - whilst the UK is shying away from both. Political whims, indeed.

flohofwoe 5y ago

There's a bit of a "silicon cluster" around Dresden in Germany going all the way back to the late 60s and 70s (the GDR had pretty impressive chip manufacturing capabilities for such a small country on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain). Also regarding the "red tape", this depends a lot on the state you're in. Brandenburg/Berlin vs Saxony/Thuringia/Bavaria can be very different in that regard (of course it depends a lot on the local government that's currently in place).

kall 5y ago

I think the government considers semiconductors a key industry to compete with china and I believe that matters. American electric car manufacturers on the other hand are a threat to germany's combustion obsessed car industry. I also think that Elon runs his companies in an unconventional way that maybe doesn‘t fly with german bureaucrats. TSMC will do things by the book and the saxonian government will welcome them with open arms. They won‘t see any of the local government trouble that Tesla had in Dresden.

estaseuropano 5y ago

Germany has dozens of chip manufacturers and great engineering workforce. Certainly much better than UK. Have not seen any wupte about Tesla wanting to pull out, but the factory is already half operational so seems most issues are resolved. Once located it should also be easier to do this kind of projects, but planting a new huge factory is always a challenge.

fundatus 5y ago

Well, the UK just willingly put up giant trade barriers with their biggest trading partner. Doesn't really scream "free trade" to most people outside the UK. There is a reason why annual foreign direct investment into the UK almost halved (!) after the Brexit referendum. Probably one of the main reasons why TSMC doesn't consider the UK for this. Also skilled immmigration to Germany is MUCH easier compared to the UK, which also plays in huge role in these kind of projects.

nbevans 5y ago
The UK isn't even manning its customs posts for imports from the EU at present. And there is no tariffs on the vast majority of exports to the EU - and certainly not on semiconductors. FDI in 2020 was almost identical to France (albeit yes 2nd to France in 1st place) for Europe: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/07/uk-second-to-france-again-for-attracting-foreign-investment-in-europe-brexit-covid-19 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jun/07/uk-second-t... This is counter to your claims concerning FDI. I doubt it is "much easier" for skilled immigration - do you have anything to support that? How is it even measured?
- fundatus 5y ago
  No one (apart from Brexiters) cares that much about tariffs. EU tariffs are some of the lowest in the world - the average applied tariff for imports into the EU in 2019 was just 1.88%. Compare that to 6% for India or 13% for the US. What really matters are non-tariff-barriers - and this is where the EU really excels. After all, that is what it was build for. FDI into the UK fell from 101,241m to just 59,137m USD in 2019. Your article doesn't look at the value of the investments but just the number of projects.
- nbevans 5y ago
  "No one (apart from Brexiters) cares that much about tariffs. EU tariffs are some of the lowest in the world - the average applied tariff for imports into the EU in 2019 was just 1.88%. Compare that to 6% for India or 13% for the US." Bizarre comment. You initiated it by suggesting the UK has erected "giant trade barriers" but then reply saying nobody cares about trade tariffs? And then immediately in the second sentence go on to compare trade tariffs globally? What exactly is your point as it isn't really cutting across?

rsynnott 5y ago

> after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there Requiring it to follow the rules? As a portion of GDP, manufacturing is a bigger part of Germany's economy than nearly any other developed country. It is even higher as a portion of GDP than _China_ (edit not China, see below). Pretty much everyone except Tesla seems to cope, so I'm inclined to assume that this is more a Tesla incompetence problem than a Germany problem. > There is also far less likelihood of exports being restricted during a possible future crisis by the political whims of failed politicians "What is Brexit?"

nbevans 5y ago
Dial down your tone - it is unwarranted. Rules and red tape was exactly my point. Why would TSMC choose to run that gauntlet willingly and potentially fall foul of the same hurdles that Tesla has encountered? One of the big problems Tesla had was around water supply. Do you have any idea how much water a chip fab uses? My point around export restrictions was in reference to the EU blocking vaccine exports this year because it suited them. There would be heavy incentives for them to do the same for semiconductors in a future supply crisis like there is right now.
- fundatus 5y ago
  > My point around export restrictions was in reference to the EU blocking vaccine exports this year because it suited them. LMAO The EU blocks ONE vaccine shipment - while the UK and the US had export bans in place for months and now the EU is the bad guy. smh
  - detritus 5y ago
    The UK did NOT have vaccine export bans in place. Why is this a recurring meme on HN? Or, more pointedly - why are some people so eager to gleefully regurgitate such misinformation?
    - fundatus 5y ago
      It's not misinformation at all. The UK was just clever enough to hide the export ban in their contracts with AZ (unlike the US which did it more bluntly). The first xx million doses of vaccines manufactured in Oxford/Keele had to be supplied to the UK. Which is an export ban in all but name. But it gave the UK government the opportunity to claim that there was no export ban in place (even though nothing was exported for months).

nixass 5y ago

> after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there Yeah, the Walmart said the same in the 90s when they tried to concur Germany, only to miserably fail. The thing is that the Germany (and the EU as a whole) is no Wild West and there are actually rules, environmental responsibility and labor laws to follow.

jansan 5y ago
I am pretty sure the other reailers in Germany like Aldi and Lidl teamed up to prevent Walmart from getting a foothold. They are extremely strong and this for a reason. I went to Walmart in Jena when they opened their shop there and was really underwhelmed by what they had to offer.
- LeanderK 5y ago
  Aldi and Lidl are even expanding their foothold in the US I think, so they are probably quite competitive

LatteLazy 5y ago

The uk is horrible political mess at the moment. God knows if we'll be able to import or export anything or keep the lights on next week. Not a great place to put a billion dollar global supply investment.

randyb27 5y ago
Chicken licken?
blibble 5y ago
do you even live in the UK? the political deadlock was completely resolved after the 2019 election... now the government has a huge majority and is rock solid politically (as is normally the case) other than some toilet roll shortages in March last year, there have been no visible issues whatsoever
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  https://www.thenational.scot/news/19450687.brexit-scottish-customers-face-empty-shelves-lack-fresh-produce/ https://www.thenational.scot/news/19450687.brexit-scottish-c... Plus lorry drivers. And hospitality jobs. And god knows what else. And we're in the middle of pulling out of the deal we signed, because no one read the Northern Ireland section. Or they did and lied and now they're pretending otherwise. We can have all the elections we want, and you're right that Bojo has a solid majority. But that majority does nothing for our relationship with the EU. And it falls apart when the "have your cake" part notices the "eat your cake" part are eating all the cake. And that's without getting into the reliability of anyone in the current government (except maybe Sunak, he's doing rather well...).
  - blibble 5y ago
    I don't think The National can be considered a credible source on, well, anything really (the Daily Mail is less biased) in their picture there's... apparently been a run on weetabix, but then the picture below shows fully stocked shelves of fruit and vegetables? honestly, I don't know why I've even bothered responding

MarcusE1W 5y ago

By strong political will to remove barriers you mean that certain politicians with the right motives (whatever that might be) are willing to wave any legal barriers ? Not sure I see this as a good thing. And with regards to political whims, From the outside it seems that is the specialty of the UK right now. Right now, in my view the UK does not look like a stable international partner, it could go in any direction, who knows ?

nbevans 5y ago
Remove barriers - as in, get the planning permits issued, provide necessary tax or subsidy incentives etc, all the standard stuff that goes on when attracting a mega-manufacturer such as TSMC. You are based in London so your view of the UK's international perception is probably about as useless as mine (also based in London). Taiwan and the UK have good relations - arguably better than Taiwan / EU - there is a longer term geopolitical instability with the EU more recently tilting towards Russia (Nordstream) and China (controversial investment deal signed in January) - whilst the UK is shying away from both. Political whims, indeed.