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If you consider GlobalFoundries to be a valid competitor, then that move would make a lot of sense. Infineon and AMD used to do a lot of research and production

If you consider GlobalFoundries to be a valid competitor, then that move would make a lot of sense. Infineon and AMD used to do a lot of research and production in Dresden. The AMD fab has since become a part of GlobalFoundries. But there's still a healthy ecosystem of university research and medium-sized software companies. Or at least there was, when I visited GlobalFoundries in 2014. Also, there has been a growing amount of research activity into chip design in Germany lately, driven in no small part by CERN's needs. For example https://ohwr.org/project/white-rabbit/wikis/home https://ohwr.org/project/white-rabbit/wikis/home used by the Control and Timing System at CERN and GSI

spaniard89277 5y ago
Very interesting. Clicking around seems they have open hardware suppliers in the EU.
gsnedders 5y ago
There's also Texas Instruments in Freising (near Munich), which I think is ex-NatSemi, and AFAIK now their only European fab after the closure of their one in Greenock (Scotland).
- nixass 5y ago
  Also Apple is heavily investing into chip design in their Munich campus.
  - Bombthecat 5y ago
    Yeah, just thought that they probably pick munich / near munich.
rurban 5y ago
We don't have enough water anymore in Dresden
- j_walter 5y ago
  Didn't stop Intel or TSMC from building in Phoenix...where there is literally no water and they are having one of the worst droughts ever.
  - delfinom 5y ago
    They'll just get a government bailout so it's no real problem. We are big on corporate socialism
    - Phobophobia 5y ago
      Corporate socialism. What a loaded phrase. I can't wait to use it in different connotations to bring more attention to the flip flopping of perspectives on fiscal policy between individual and corporate.
- mbeex 5y ago
  Proof? https://www.umwelt.sachsen.de/umwelt/infosysteme/ida/q/eg https://www.umwelt.sachsen.de/umwelt/infosysteme/ida/q/eg
Panoramix 5y ago
I don't see GlobalFoundries as a realistic competitor to TSMC. Also CERN's needs cannot be compared to the needs of Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and the likes. That right there is a huge chunk of the world's economy and they all rely on TSMC directly or indirectly. My guess would be this is more about diversifying. I think it makes a lot of sense to have factories in the US, Europe and Asia, especially given China's stance on Taiwan.
kken 5y ago
Actually there is a lot of current semi activity in Dresden. It's the biggest cluster in Europe. Notable fabs in Dresden: Globalfoundries, Infineon, Bosch (recently opened), X-Fab, First Sensor, Plastic Logic (now defunct). May be noteworthy that some of these fabs are among the semi fabs with the highest degree of automotation world wide. Add to this many bigger and smaller suppliers, universities, reasearch institutes and so on. https://www.silicon-saxony.de/nc/en/members/sorted-by-alphabet/ https://www.silicon-saxony.de/nc/en/members/sorted-by-alphab... There are also plenty of Fabs in other parts of Germany: Infineon, Bosch, Nexperia, TDK, Osram, TI, X-Fab, Vishay, Elmos and some I forgot probably. There are also many design companies. Especially noteworthy is probably Apples modem team that keep growing and growing... CERN certainly stimulates some semi research, but it is rather specialized.
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  In my opinion, the critical role of CERN here is to create demand for cutting-edge production runs which can then be combined with other research projects for cost savings. In the PCB industry at least, it is quite common to pool designs from different customers onto one sheet. Also, CERN heavily promotes open source software development, among other things by getting students super excited (high school trip to a super collider) and by raising research funding for PhDs to work on said software.
depereo 5y ago
They'd additionally have a closer base to ASML HQ and more opportunities for cross-pollination of talent.
zz865 5y ago
Any historic reason for the cluster to be in Dresden? I would have expected the most sophisticated areas to be in Western Germany area. Maybe govt encouraged development there?
- idownvoted 5y ago
  There is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEB_Robotron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEB_Robotron https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotron_300 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotron_300 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Saxony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Saxony
- flohofwoe 5y ago
  Dresden was the seat of Robotron since the late 60s, which was the biggest (and pretty much only) East German electronics company. In some ways, East Germany had built a more advanced (or let's just say "bigger") semiconductor industry than Western Germany during the 70's and 80's, because Western Germany could simply buy its chips cheap from all over the world, while the Eastern Bloc was under emgargo and had to produce their own. East Germany focused on Zilog clones, while the Soviets focused on Intel clones. After the reunification most of this industry collapsed because it wasn't internationally competitive, some niches and especially the "engineering tradition" and universities survived though. I think this planted the seed for Dresden to become a semiconductor hub again since the early 2000's, of course supported by the Saxon government (AMD building a fab there at the end of the 90's was a big deal for Saxony).
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  When I visited GlobalFoundries, they said the location was chosen for its low rate of earth movements, the stable rocks underground that things can be anchored to, and the stable wind conditions. If you're fabricating things at 30nm, a strong gust of wind against the side wall of your factory might be enough to waste some wafers. If I remember correctly, they have a rubber shell to protect against it...

spaniard89277 5y ago

Very interesting. Clicking around seems they have open hardware suppliers in the EU.

gsnedders 5y ago

There's also Texas Instruments in Freising (near Munich), which I think is ex-NatSemi, and AFAIK now their only European fab after the closure of their one in Greenock (Scotland).

nixass 5y ago
Also Apple is heavily investing into chip design in their Munich campus.
- Bombthecat 5y ago
  Yeah, just thought that they probably pick munich / near munich.

rurban 5y ago

We don't have enough water anymore in Dresden

j_walter 5y ago
Didn't stop Intel or TSMC from building in Phoenix...where there is literally no water and they are having one of the worst droughts ever.
- delfinom 5y ago
  They'll just get a government bailout so it's no real problem. We are big on corporate socialism
  - Phobophobia 5y ago
    Corporate socialism. What a loaded phrase. I can't wait to use it in different connotations to bring more attention to the flip flopping of perspectives on fiscal policy between individual and corporate.
mbeex 5y ago
Proof? https://www.umwelt.sachsen.de/umwelt/infosysteme/ida/q/eg https://www.umwelt.sachsen.de/umwelt/infosysteme/ida/q/eg

Panoramix 5y ago

I don't see GlobalFoundries as a realistic competitor to TSMC. Also CERN's needs cannot be compared to the needs of Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and the likes. That right there is a huge chunk of the world's economy and they all rely on TSMC directly or indirectly. My guess would be this is more about diversifying. I think it makes a lot of sense to have factories in the US, Europe and Asia, especially given China's stance on Taiwan.

kken 5y ago

Actually there is a lot of current semi activity in Dresden. It's the biggest cluster in Europe. Notable fabs in Dresden: Globalfoundries, Infineon, Bosch (recently opened), X-Fab, First Sensor, Plastic Logic (now defunct). May be noteworthy that some of these fabs are among the semi fabs with the highest degree of automotation world wide. Add to this many bigger and smaller suppliers, universities, reasearch institutes and so on. https://www.silicon-saxony.de/nc/en/members/sorted-by-alphabet/ https://www.silicon-saxony.de/nc/en/members/sorted-by-alphab... There are also plenty of Fabs in other parts of Germany: Infineon, Bosch, Nexperia, TDK, Osram, TI, X-Fab, Vishay, Elmos and some I forgot probably. There are also many design companies. Especially noteworthy is probably Apples modem team that keep growing and growing... CERN certainly stimulates some semi research, but it is rather specialized.

fxtentacle 5y ago
In my opinion, the critical role of CERN here is to create demand for cutting-edge production runs which can then be combined with other research projects for cost savings. In the PCB industry at least, it is quite common to pool designs from different customers onto one sheet. Also, CERN heavily promotes open source software development, among other things by getting students super excited (high school trip to a super collider) and by raising research funding for PhDs to work on said software.

depereo 5y ago

They'd additionally have a closer base to ASML HQ and more opportunities for cross-pollination of talent.

zz865 5y ago

Any historic reason for the cluster to be in Dresden? I would have expected the most sophisticated areas to be in Western Germany area. Maybe govt encouraged development there?

idownvoted 5y ago
There is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEB_Robotron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEB_Robotron https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotron_300 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotron_300 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Saxony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Saxony
flohofwoe 5y ago
Dresden was the seat of Robotron since the late 60s, which was the biggest (and pretty much only) East German electronics company. In some ways, East Germany had built a more advanced (or let's just say "bigger") semiconductor industry than Western Germany during the 70's and 80's, because Western Germany could simply buy its chips cheap from all over the world, while the Eastern Bloc was under emgargo and had to produce their own. East Germany focused on Zilog clones, while the Soviets focused on Intel clones. After the reunification most of this industry collapsed because it wasn't internationally competitive, some niches and especially the "engineering tradition" and universities survived though. I think this planted the seed for Dresden to become a semiconductor hub again since the early 2000's, of course supported by the Saxon government (AMD building a fab there at the end of the 90's was a big deal for Saxony).
fxtentacle 5y ago
When I visited GlobalFoundries, they said the location was chosen for its low rate of earth movements, the stable rocks underground that things can be anchored to, and the stable wind conditions. If you're fabricating things at 30nm, a strong gust of wind against the side wall of your factory might be enough to waste some wafers. If I remember correctly, they have a rubber shell to protect against it...