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Labor laws would still be sort of OK for a high-tech factory like TSMC. But I think environmental policy would be really hostile to a large fab. Politics seems

by Bigpet 5y ago

Labor laws would still be sort of OK for a high-tech factory like TSMC. But I think environmental policy would be really hostile to a large fab. Politics seems really fickle about it too. For "old school" industries like coal they try to bend over backwards to make exceptions, but when it comes to new players especially local politics will have little reservations to tanking your multi million dollar projects. This can obviously be a huge benefit to the population, but if I were in the position to choose a location I'd factor that in heavily.

corty 5y ago
Problem with new players imho is the high level of corruption in certain parts of government and industry. While you cannot usually bribe a policeman in Germany, construction, permitting and industry subsidies and politics are heavily corrupt. Old-school industries are propped up by an old-boys-network and revolving doors between political parties, unions, administration and industry. Many politicians who did well by the coal industry for example got their comfortable retirement position in the boards of energy giants. Same for the car industry. Parts of those industries are even still owned by the state or federal government, e.g. Volkswagen is partially owned by the state of Lower Saxony and Germany. That is also possibly the reason Tesla is in such trouble over their new factory. While they are a car manufacturer, and a modern, hip and green one at that, which politics openly hails as good, secretly they are damaging established interests by the traditional German car manufacturers and their allies in high positions. So the administration will nod and smile, but try to find ways to hinder them.
- LeanderK 5y ago
  I think Tesla is just in such trouble because they were building their factory without having all permits. They were allowed to do that, but had to get all the permits in the end. As I understood it Tesla then build stuff that are not usually allowed, I suspect Tesla was trying to establish facts and thereby trying circumvent regulation. I don't really see the german government here at fault. They were eager to get the factory up and running and were working with Tesla to get it built quickly. If Tesla wants to build first and get the permits later, it also has to retroactively improve things when they were not up to code. You can't just get permits because you've built something.
estaseuropano 5y ago
You get some local activism against individual factories, but generally Germany is huge in building specialized industry and they manage to push companies to clean things up. For me that's all a win. You can find giant chemical and manufacturing plants all across Germany. Thinking Germany is problematic is a very narrow worldview, in most countries you have huge political/corruption/business continuity risks, from unsteady electricity to broken roads to terror threats - Germany is a safe and stable bet.
eyelovewe 5y ago
It sounds like a positive incentive to cleanup the processes involved. Where there is a will,there is a way, etc. I don’t think that offshoring dirty industry is anything but NIMBYism and ultimately we need to cleanup electronics fabrication
detaro 5y ago
Then why hasn't this been an issue for any of the existing fabs? Semiconductor manufacturing has been a large welcome prestige thing pretty much anywhere.
LeanderK 5y ago
Bosch recently built a fab in Dresden (afaik), so it has to be possible.

by Bigpet 5y ago

corty 5y ago

Problem with new players imho is the high level of corruption in certain parts of government and industry. While you cannot usually bribe a policeman in Germany, construction, permitting and industry subsidies and politics are heavily corrupt. Old-school industries are propped up by an old-boys-network and revolving doors between political parties, unions, administration and industry. Many politicians who did well by the coal industry for example got their comfortable retirement position in the boards of energy giants. Same for the car industry. Parts of those industries are even still owned by the state or federal government, e.g. Volkswagen is partially owned by the state of Lower Saxony and Germany. That is also possibly the reason Tesla is in such trouble over their new factory. While they are a car manufacturer, and a modern, hip and green one at that, which politics openly hails as good, secretly they are damaging established interests by the traditional German car manufacturers and their allies in high positions. So the administration will nod and smile, but try to find ways to hinder them.

LeanderK 5y ago
I think Tesla is just in such trouble because they were building their factory without having all permits. They were allowed to do that, but had to get all the permits in the end. As I understood it Tesla then build stuff that are not usually allowed, I suspect Tesla was trying to establish facts and thereby trying circumvent regulation. I don't really see the german government here at fault. They were eager to get the factory up and running and were working with Tesla to get it built quickly. If Tesla wants to build first and get the permits later, it also has to retroactively improve things when they were not up to code. You can't just get permits because you've built something.

estaseuropano 5y ago

You get some local activism against individual factories, but generally Germany is huge in building specialized industry and they manage to push companies to clean things up. For me that's all a win. You can find giant chemical and manufacturing plants all across Germany. Thinking Germany is problematic is a very narrow worldview, in most countries you have huge political/corruption/business continuity risks, from unsteady electricity to broken roads to terror threats - Germany is a safe and stable bet.

eyelovewe 5y ago

It sounds like a positive incentive to cleanup the processes involved. Where there is a will,there is a way, etc. I don’t think that offshoring dirty industry is anything but NIMBYism and ultimately we need to cleanup electronics fabrication

detaro 5y ago

Then why hasn't this been an issue for any of the existing fabs? Semiconductor manufacturing has been a large welcome prestige thing pretty much anywhere.

LeanderK 5y ago

Bosch recently built a fab in Dresden (afaik), so it has to be possible.