6 ms·

There has been the stylus tech for a while to do good input, but typing out phonetically is basically much quicker (and the "flick"-based inputs of touchscreens

by rtpg 5y ago

There has been the stylus tech for a while to do good input, but typing out phonetically is basically much quicker (and the "flick"-based inputs of touchscreens even faster). Do you want to write out like 7 lines on a screen for a character? or just type its 2-4 letter phonetic? The current input stuff is basically like T9 crossed with gmail's autocomplete: it's really good at predicting what you want for the most part, and lets you type at very fast speeds whne you're good at stuff. Exaggerating a bit with the GMail autocomplete but some very common fragments will pop up almost instantly when you start typing them in. In a sense the input methods are a solved problem.

Normille 5y ago
>Do you want to write out like 7 lines on a screen for a character? or just type its 2-4 letter phonetic?... >The current input stuff is basically like T9 crossed with gmail's autocomplete... DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about writing Japanese characters. But it was the fact that current methods require typing a phonetic equivalent using an alien character set [ie. Latin] which is then translated back to the desired Japanese character set that seemed so clunky to me. But I'm imagining it from the point of view if I had to learn the Greek or Cyrillic alphabets and type phonetically in them to have the computer then try and guess what I wanted to write in the Latin alphabet. But maybe for Japanese people brought up on this method of entering text, the Latin alphabet is completely familiar, so this disconnect doesn't happen?
- kalleboo 5y ago
  > that current methods require typing a phonetic equivalent using an alien character set [ie. Latin] which is then translated back to the desired Japanese character set FWIW, the common "flick" method on phones is done using the native hiragana characters which by a coincidence handily map onto a T9-style layout https://lpgen.line-scdn.net/mobile-guide/7037/images/169626/137_02.png https://lpgen.line-scdn.net/mobile-guide/7037/images/169626/... Keyboard sold in Japan have the corresponding kana on their keys so you can input using native characters, but it's generally "only used by old people" https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/WdEEFbM3kmER2rJReyr08ejfwLBI85cVEGsc90mdjwyoQCukpn3XrOUNUruS3-Zm98tWfHt_8tZ0NxXXT5g4BQ https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/WdEEFbM3kmER2rJReyr0... So using latin characters isn't required per se, but on PCs it tends to be a choice.
  - codedokode 5y ago
    Keyboard with kana is inconvenient because it is just latin 26-keys keyboard and Japanese has about 40 kana characters. If they have added an additional row then it would allow typing twice faster than on a latin keyboard (because one kana character is equivalent to 2-3 latin characters). But keyboard manufacturers do not want to make better keyboards for non-latin countries, they just overlay foreign characters on standard 26-key keyboard because it is cheaper.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
      Japanese keyboards aren't mere standard Latin keyboards. They have several additional keys which make them physically a distinct layout to what the rest of the world uses.
      - knolax 5y ago
        They only have a couple extra keys when they need maybe an extra row. (IMO unnecessary) Trade offs have been made, like in most non US latin languages, for compatibility with the US keyboard layout. It is similar to the European keyboard layout where it is painfully obvious that they would have a much more efficient layout if they just added more keys, but they chose not too because then it would differ too much from the US standard.
  - mzs 5y ago
    last URL 403s
    - kalleboo 5y ago
      Oops, didn't wait for it to load enough. Here's a wikimedia link for another JIS keyboard https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Logicool_K380_Japanese_bluetooth_keyboard.jpg/2560px-Logicool_K380_Japanese_bluetooth_keyboard.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Lo...
- Tor3 5y ago
  Typing phonetically works incredibly well. My wife (she's Japanese) writes her documents and text very fast. She says that she's actually a bit unusual (at least for her age group) in using that method, which surprised me because it's so efficient. But ".. using an alien character set" isn't actually an issue - in Japan you learn Hiragana, Katakana, Kanji, and Latin letters. My wife's handwriting (with Latin letters) is way better than my own.
  - codedokode 5y ago
    Typing in hiragana directly in theory would allow to double the typing speed because one hiragana character is equivalent to 2-3 latin charcters.
    - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
      They would have to be moved further apart so that doesn't matter. I would even argue that having to have a larger keyboard and moving the hands more would greatly offset that.
      - otagekki 5y ago
        The thing is you don't even need to have a bigger keyboard: there is currently an input method that maps every key to a given kana. Not sure why it isn't more widespread though
        Blikkentrekker 5y ago
        There aren't enough keys for that, especially with the many digraphs that exist. It's simply far more convenient to say type <kya> and receive <きゃ> than some method to enter the small <や>. The standard method of entering <ん> with either <n> or <nn> depending on context is silly, however, and I simply have it on the otherwise unused <l>.
        jogu 5y ago
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  I don't know that you can call latin characters (romaji) "alien" to modern Japanese. Aside from everyone learning English throughout their entire school career, romaji is pretty common in signage and interfaces. If you write Japanese in romaji, anyone on the street can read it. This is not something you can say about rendering English in katakana.
  - reaperducer 5y ago
    Since he's quoting his wife, who is actually Japanese, I think we non-Japanese have to accept her word that it is "alien." Also note that not all uses of the word "alien" are negative.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      I reviewed the thread and I think you are confusing Normille (the one I responded to) with Tor3 (who actually seems to back up my assertion). Unless I missed something of course. I'll obviously yield to a native speaker's opinion on this.
- mratzloff 5y ago
  Latin characters are hardly alien to Japanese.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  Latin characters wouldn't be a requirement; Chinese users can do more-or-less the same thing using the Cangjie or Zhuyin/Bopomofo systems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangjie_input_method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangjie_input_method
- Blikkentrekker 5y ago
  It isn't entered phonetically; it's entered structurally. There are actually three characters that are pronounced the same as three other characters, but those are entered in different ways for structural reasons, and Japanese characters are neatly arranged on a grid in a way that is sensible that does not necessarily correspond to pronunciation well but corresponds well to structure. The character entered with <ti> for instance in pronunciation corresponds more closely to the digraph entered with <tya>, but in structure corresponds more closely to the character entered with <ta>, and is therefore found on the same row. When all digraphs and characters are summed's close to 90 characters I believe, which does not fit neatly on a keyboard, and then even enter the modern digraphs that are used in loan transcription which do not correspond to any native structure of Japanese which probably add another 20-30 characters which are also made with structural combinations that make sense. <thi> is a common combination to enter something that has nothing to do with the pronunciation <th> would suggest, but it structurally makes sense. And then on top of that there are various nonsense accents and other modifications that officially have no place in the standard language but find their way in creative language. If English had 80 characters in it's script, but the characters so neatly corresponded in a structural way that they could be arranged nicely on a grid, typing methods would probably also rely on combining simpler forms to produce them rather than have a keyboard that spans the full range as it's simply more efficient.
  - jogu 5y ago
    I don't think it's fair to say it isn't entered phonetically. Fundamentally typing in Japanese is grounded in providing the phonetics of a word which can then be converted to more precise characters. As for Romaji based input, certainly there are some liberties taken based on the logical structure of kana that have been to applied to typing for convenience, but for the most part the Romaji has been chosen for phonetic reasons. It's also worth noting that from an English perspective the sound you associate with <ti> might be different from the sound a Japanese person might associate with it. Just because the usage isn't strictly the English phonetics, doesn't mean the symbols aren't being used phonetically.
    - Blikkentrekker 5y ago

by rtpg 5y ago

Normille 5y ago

>Do you want to write out like 7 lines on a screen for a character? or just type its 2-4 letter phonetic?... >The current input stuff is basically like T9 crossed with gmail's autocomplete... DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about writing Japanese characters. But it was the fact that current methods require typing a phonetic equivalent using an alien character set [ie. Latin] which is then translated back to the desired Japanese character set that seemed so clunky to me. But I'm imagining it from the point of view if I had to learn the Greek or Cyrillic alphabets and type phonetically in them to have the computer then try and guess what I wanted to write in the Latin alphabet. But maybe for Japanese people brought up on this method of entering text, the Latin alphabet is completely familiar, so this disconnect doesn't happen?

kalleboo 5y ago
> that current methods require typing a phonetic equivalent using an alien character set [ie. Latin] which is then translated back to the desired Japanese character set FWIW, the common "flick" method on phones is done using the native hiragana characters which by a coincidence handily map onto a T9-style layout https://lpgen.line-scdn.net/mobile-guide/7037/images/169626/137_02.png https://lpgen.line-scdn.net/mobile-guide/7037/images/169626/... Keyboard sold in Japan have the corresponding kana on their keys so you can input using native characters, but it's generally "only used by old people" https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/WdEEFbM3kmER2rJReyr08ejfwLBI85cVEGsc90mdjwyoQCukpn3XrOUNUruS3-Zm98tWfHt_8tZ0NxXXT5g4BQ https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/WdEEFbM3kmER2rJReyr0... So using latin characters isn't required per se, but on PCs it tends to be a choice.
- codedokode 5y ago
  Keyboard with kana is inconvenient because it is just latin 26-keys keyboard and Japanese has about 40 kana characters. If they have added an additional row then it would allow typing twice faster than on a latin keyboard (because one kana character is equivalent to 2-3 latin characters). But keyboard manufacturers do not want to make better keyboards for non-latin countries, they just overlay foreign characters on standard 26-key keyboard because it is cheaper.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
    Japanese keyboards aren't mere standard Latin keyboards. They have several additional keys which make them physically a distinct layout to what the rest of the world uses.
    - knolax 5y ago
      They only have a couple extra keys when they need maybe an extra row. (IMO unnecessary) Trade offs have been made, like in most non US latin languages, for compatibility with the US keyboard layout. It is similar to the European keyboard layout where it is painfully obvious that they would have a much more efficient layout if they just added more keys, but they chose not too because then it would differ too much from the US standard.
- mzs 5y ago
  last URL 403s
  - kalleboo 5y ago
    Oops, didn't wait for it to load enough. Here's a wikimedia link for another JIS keyboard https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Logicool_K380_Japanese_bluetooth_keyboard.jpg/2560px-Logicool_K380_Japanese_bluetooth_keyboard.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Lo...
Tor3 5y ago
Typing phonetically works incredibly well. My wife (she's Japanese) writes her documents and text very fast. She says that she's actually a bit unusual (at least for her age group) in using that method, which surprised me because it's so efficient. But ".. using an alien character set" isn't actually an issue - in Japan you learn Hiragana, Katakana, Kanji, and Latin letters. My wife's handwriting (with Latin letters) is way better than my own.
- codedokode 5y ago
  Typing in hiragana directly in theory would allow to double the typing speed because one hiragana character is equivalent to 2-3 latin charcters.
  - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
    They would have to be moved further apart so that doesn't matter. I would even argue that having to have a larger keyboard and moving the hands more would greatly offset that.
    - otagekki 5y ago
      The thing is you don't even need to have a bigger keyboard: there is currently an input method that maps every key to a given kana. Not sure why it isn't more widespread though
      - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
        There aren't enough keys for that, especially with the many digraphs that exist. It's simply far more convenient to say type <kya> and receive <きゃ> than some method to enter the small <や>. The standard method of entering <ん> with either <n> or <nn> depending on context is silly, however, and I simply have it on the otherwise unused <l>.
        jogu 5y ago
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
I don't know that you can call latin characters (romaji) "alien" to modern Japanese. Aside from everyone learning English throughout their entire school career, romaji is pretty common in signage and interfaces. If you write Japanese in romaji, anyone on the street can read it. This is not something you can say about rendering English in katakana.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  Since he's quoting his wife, who is actually Japanese, I think we non-Japanese have to accept her word that it is "alien." Also note that not all uses of the word "alien" are negative.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    I reviewed the thread and I think you are confusing Normille (the one I responded to) with Tor3 (who actually seems to back up my assertion). Unless I missed something of course. I'll obviously yield to a native speaker's opinion on this.
mratzloff 5y ago
Latin characters are hardly alien to Japanese.
Symbiote 5y ago
Latin characters wouldn't be a requirement; Chinese users can do more-or-less the same thing using the Cangjie or Zhuyin/Bopomofo systems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangjie_input_method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cangjie_input_method
Blikkentrekker 5y ago
It isn't entered phonetically; it's entered structurally. There are actually three characters that are pronounced the same as three other characters, but those are entered in different ways for structural reasons, and Japanese characters are neatly arranged on a grid in a way that is sensible that does not necessarily correspond to pronunciation well but corresponds well to structure. The character entered with <ti> for instance in pronunciation corresponds more closely to the digraph entered with <tya>, but in structure corresponds more closely to the character entered with <ta>, and is therefore found on the same row. When all digraphs and characters are summed's close to 90 characters I believe, which does not fit neatly on a keyboard, and then even enter the modern digraphs that are used in loan transcription which do not correspond to any native structure of Japanese which probably add another 20-30 characters which are also made with structural combinations that make sense. <thi> is a common combination to enter something that has nothing to do with the pronunciation <th> would suggest, but it structurally makes sense. And then on top of that there are various nonsense accents and other modifications that officially have no place in the standard language but find their way in creative language. If English had 80 characters in it's script, but the characters so neatly corresponded in a structural way that they could be arranged nicely on a grid, typing methods would probably also rely on combining simpler forms to produce them rather than have a keyboard that spans the full range as it's simply more efficient.
- jogu 5y ago
  I don't think it's fair to say it isn't entered phonetically. Fundamentally typing in Japanese is grounded in providing the phonetics of a word which can then be converted to more precise characters. As for Romaji based input, certainly there are some liberties taken based on the logical structure of kana that have been to applied to typing for convenience, but for the most part the Romaji has been chosen for phonetic reasons. It's also worth noting that from an English perspective the sound you associate with <ti> might be different from the sound a Japanese person might associate with it. Just because the usage isn't strictly the English phonetics, doesn't mean the symbols aren't being used phonetically.
  - Blikkentrekker 5y ago