5 ms·

Not all car usage is a problem. I’m from the Netherlands which is incredibly bicycle friendly. Small country, highly urban, great cycling infra, great public t

Not all car usage is a problem. I’m from the Netherlands which is incredibly bicycle friendly. Small country, highly urban, great cycling infra, great public transport, nearly everyone walks or cycles whenever it makes sense. Still, cars are everywhere. There are just tons of trips where the alternative doesn’t really make sense. Municipalities try everything to make the life of car owners miserable to force them into using alternatives. The only outcome is miserable drivers. They are in the car for a reason and won’t just switch.

bartvk 5y ago
> Still, cars are everywhere. There are just tons of trips where the alternative doesn’t really make sense. The obvious alternative is a car sharing platform. I've got a couple in my neighborhood and they work for the kind of trip you're describing.
- varjag 5y ago
  That's an alternative only if you don't need a car regularly. You still have to book a vehicle (availability can vary), get to the collection lot, get back home if you need to pick up someone for the trip, take the trip, deliver the passengers, clean up and fuel/charge the vehicle, deliver it back to the parking lot and get back home.
  - bartvk 5y ago
    Yes, that's correct. I'd have to hedge my previous statement and say it's only viable for regular car usage if there are multiple shared cars within walking distance. For instance in my street, there's one. And another two in the next street. I've got an 8 year old and it works fine and I book up to three trips per week. But if they weren't within walking range (for a kid) then indeed, it wouldn't be an alternative to owning a car.
- Toutouxc 5y ago
  There's one thing that car sharing proponents still seem to miss, even on HN, which is interesting, HN being a community where everyone apparently runs Arch with i3, vim and custom dotfiles on a Thinkpad. My car is MY car. There is no more dust or dirt in it than in my living room. The cabin filter has been recently replaced and there is no mold in the condenser. I know the single other person who drives it an exactly how she drives it. The brake pads are okay. The steering is okay. The wishbone bushings are okay and the car won't pull anywhere even under heavy braking. I've driven this car for thousands of kilometers and hundreds of hours, fast and slow, in rain and snow. If I ever need to evade an obstacle doing 130 kph on a highway in a split second, just by muscle memory, without flipping the car over and hurting myself or my girlfriend, I want it to be in this car. People die driving cars. Cars are heavy machinery (!) operated by mostly incompetent, distracted, sometimes aggressive clothed monkeys and as long as this is true, I simply refuse to drive a vehicle I know nothing about and can't rely on. I'm not even going to mention covid, thank god for my own car. (Btw I do use shared cars for short trips around the city and the cars, despite being almost brand new, are mostly dirty poor banged up things driven like fucking go karts by other people.)
  - bartvk 5y ago
    I haven't had that experience. Maybe it's due to the fact that my platform of choice does not allow casual driving. It's a pretty high monthly fee. The cars have remained clean and in very good shape, lasting about four years. I totally agree with you. If I had your experience, then I definitely would've outright owned a car. No way I'll put my kid in an unsafe car.
lucideer 5y ago
> Still, cars are everywhere. I don't think cars will ever disappear, they're useful in many ways. But saying "cars are everywhere" in NL seems a bit of an overstatement, no? Cars are so much less dominant in NL than in other European countries (even Denmark). > try everything to make the life of car owners miserable Are they miserable because of inherent challenges of car ownership that other countries try to mitigate or is it really municipalities actively causing their misery?
- baud147258 5y ago
  > Are they miserable because of inherent challenges of car ownership that other countries try to mitigate or is it really municipalities actively causing their misery? Can't really talk for the NL, but for Paris, it really seems like the municipality is trying to make drivers miserable, while not improving the situation for everyone else
  - lucideer 5y ago
    Can you expand on this? What are the municipality doing exactly that is causing misery? If it's just removing an amenity that was previously taken for granted, then I really don't think that necessarily applies.
- aequitas 5y ago
  > But saying "cars are everywhere" in NL seems a bit of an overstatement, no? Except for cities with pedestrian only centers, cars are everywhere here. In some bigger cities there are certainly some people that go around without cars as they have everything they need close by and good public transport. But most of they (especially just outside of the city center) have at least one car in their household. Car ownership is even growing faster than population: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/10/autopark-groeit-sterker-dan-bevolking https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/10/autopark-groeit-ster...
dalbasal 5y ago
At least in the Netherlands, you guys have other options. I live in Ireland. We also make life miserable for drivers, and basically unaffordable for young, or poor people. But here, about 50% of the population doesn't have access to any alternatives.
yuri91 5y ago
But your public transport is not great, really. It is pretty expensive, to the point that renting a car is cheaper than taking the train if you are 2 people. And trains are painfully slow too. Public transport inside cities is better (but still expensive), but less needed because biking infrastructure is really really good.
sudosysgen 5y ago
I agree that we will still have cars. At some point, yes, we will have to accept the level of car use we get to, and at that level making drivers miserable won't really help, I agree. We're just very far from that level. Also, the Netherlands while amazing is not perfect, we can still do better, though it is great.

bartvk 5y ago

> Still, cars are everywhere. There are just tons of trips where the alternative doesn’t really make sense. The obvious alternative is a car sharing platform. I've got a couple in my neighborhood and they work for the kind of trip you're describing.

varjag 5y ago
That's an alternative only if you don't need a car regularly. You still have to book a vehicle (availability can vary), get to the collection lot, get back home if you need to pick up someone for the trip, take the trip, deliver the passengers, clean up and fuel/charge the vehicle, deliver it back to the parking lot and get back home.
- bartvk 5y ago
  Yes, that's correct. I'd have to hedge my previous statement and say it's only viable for regular car usage if there are multiple shared cars within walking distance. For instance in my street, there's one. And another two in the next street. I've got an 8 year old and it works fine and I book up to three trips per week. But if they weren't within walking range (for a kid) then indeed, it wouldn't be an alternative to owning a car.
Toutouxc 5y ago
There's one thing that car sharing proponents still seem to miss, even on HN, which is interesting, HN being a community where everyone apparently runs Arch with i3, vim and custom dotfiles on a Thinkpad. My car is MY car. There is no more dust or dirt in it than in my living room. The cabin filter has been recently replaced and there is no mold in the condenser. I know the single other person who drives it an exactly how she drives it. The brake pads are okay. The steering is okay. The wishbone bushings are okay and the car won't pull anywhere even under heavy braking. I've driven this car for thousands of kilometers and hundreds of hours, fast and slow, in rain and snow. If I ever need to evade an obstacle doing 130 kph on a highway in a split second, just by muscle memory, without flipping the car over and hurting myself or my girlfriend, I want it to be in this car. People die driving cars. Cars are heavy machinery (!) operated by mostly incompetent, distracted, sometimes aggressive clothed monkeys and as long as this is true, I simply refuse to drive a vehicle I know nothing about and can't rely on. I'm not even going to mention covid, thank god for my own car. (Btw I do use shared cars for short trips around the city and the cars, despite being almost brand new, are mostly dirty poor banged up things driven like fucking go karts by other people.)
- bartvk 5y ago
  I haven't had that experience. Maybe it's due to the fact that my platform of choice does not allow casual driving. It's a pretty high monthly fee. The cars have remained clean and in very good shape, lasting about four years. I totally agree with you. If I had your experience, then I definitely would've outright owned a car. No way I'll put my kid in an unsafe car.

lucideer 5y ago

> Still, cars are everywhere. I don't think cars will ever disappear, they're useful in many ways. But saying "cars are everywhere" in NL seems a bit of an overstatement, no? Cars are so much less dominant in NL than in other European countries (even Denmark). > try everything to make the life of car owners miserable Are they miserable because of inherent challenges of car ownership that other countries try to mitigate or is it really municipalities actively causing their misery?

baud147258 5y ago
> Are they miserable because of inherent challenges of car ownership that other countries try to mitigate or is it really municipalities actively causing their misery? Can't really talk for the NL, but for Paris, it really seems like the municipality is trying to make drivers miserable, while not improving the situation for everyone else
- lucideer 5y ago
  Can you expand on this? What are the municipality doing exactly that is causing misery? If it's just removing an amenity that was previously taken for granted, then I really don't think that necessarily applies.
aequitas 5y ago
> But saying "cars are everywhere" in NL seems a bit of an overstatement, no? Except for cities with pedestrian only centers, cars are everywhere here. In some bigger cities there are certainly some people that go around without cars as they have everything they need close by and good public transport. But most of they (especially just outside of the city center) have at least one car in their household. Car ownership is even growing faster than population: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/10/autopark-groeit-sterker-dan-bevolking https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/10/autopark-groeit-ster...

dalbasal 5y ago

At least in the Netherlands, you guys have other options. I live in Ireland. We also make life miserable for drivers, and basically unaffordable for young, or poor people. But here, about 50% of the population doesn't have access to any alternatives.

yuri91 5y ago

But your public transport is not great, really. It is pretty expensive, to the point that renting a car is cheaper than taking the train if you are 2 people. And trains are painfully slow too. Public transport inside cities is better (but still expensive), but less needed because biking infrastructure is really really good.

sudosysgen 5y ago

I agree that we will still have cars. At some point, yes, we will have to accept the level of car use we get to, and at that level making drivers miserable won't really help, I agree. We're just very far from that level. Also, the Netherlands while amazing is not perfect, we can still do better, though it is great.