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Is there a resource (maybe with sound samples) that expands on the voiced/unvoiced vs aspirated/unaspirated distinction? It sounds fascinating, but I'm struggli

Is there a resource (maybe with sound samples) that expands on the voiced/unvoiced vs aspirated/unaspirated distinction? It sounds fascinating, but I'm struggling to conceptualize it just with the text here.

ylyn 5y ago
Compare the t in 'stellar' vs the t in 'tell'.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  What's the difference between the t in 'stellar' vs the t in 'tell'? I seem to pronounce them identically, dictionary pronunciation guides (https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/stellar?q=stellar https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis... and https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/tell?q=tell https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis...) do not make a distinction.. [edit] ah, one (!) of the two "tell" audio recordings in that dictionary seems to pronounce it in a different way that would illustrate the aspiration, but that seems different to how I've usually heard 'tell' being pronounced.
  - bjowen 5y ago
    This is so hard to explain in text, given the variation of English accents and that aspiration is not meaningful in English. For my regional speech, the strongest difference would be something like the difference between the /k/ sounds in “kale” and “scale”. Nothing to do with my feelings for the vegetable, but it gets an extra scornful bit of turbulence.
  - elros 5y ago
    Both recordings of the "tell" word exhibit aspiration. I guess it is perhaps more noticeable to me because I'm quite well-versed in phonetics. A common way of illustrating aspiration is: hold a sheet of paper in front of your mouth (or your hand), as you say the words. "tell" will give you a noticeable puff of air as it leaves the mouth, as opposed to "stellar", which won't. Maybe these recordings are helpful to you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant#Allophonic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant#Allophonic
    - PeterisP 5y ago
      Thanks, that was helpful, I seem to get the difference now - just the "tell" example wasn't working as I (apparently unlike most English speakers) seem to pronounce that word with an unaspirated t.
  - kragen 5y ago
    Are you a native English speaker? It's common for native speakers to be pretty deaf to the differences between allophones. Try recording yourself in Audacity saying "Tell the stellar tart to start stewing a tall stall too," then highlight the two "tell" sounds and listen to them repeatedly. Also the two "tart" sounds, the two "too"/"tew" sounds, and the two "tall" sounds. Maybe you'll be able to hear the puff of white noise that's missing in "stellar", "start", "stew", and "stall". That's the aspiration.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
retrac 5y ago
The Wikipedia articles on it might be approachable for a layperson with no particular background. I studied some linguistics in university and it's a hobby interest so I can't really judge that anymore. The articles have plenty of sound examples. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_(phonetics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_(phonetics) English actually has all the relevant sounds in most dialects so I will try to explain in it reference to that. Most English dialects have environments where consonants are reliably aspirated, or not, depending on their voicing and surrounding environment. Unvoiced stops (p/t/k) in isolation "pat" or "cap" are moderately aspirated. Voiced stops (b/d/g) are not like "dog" or "bad". (Leaning on this pattern as a partial hack using a feature common in a lot of European languages, is why p and b are what they are in Pinyin, and many other Chinese romanizations.) In principle, if your dialect does not have a length contrast for /æ/ after a voiced consonant (many do though including mine, making the vowel longer in that environment, so you'll have to try to say them with equal vowel length) then "pap" and "bab" (to rhyme with cap and cat) when whispered (no vocal chord movement, so all equally unvoiced) should be differentiated only by aspiration similar to Mandarin's p/b difference. Though aspiration is Mandarin is a bit more forceful. As an aside, most people can hear the difference between those words when whispered, hearing a voiced or unvoiced consonant, based solely on the aspiration hint. Phonetic interpretation is a strange and subtle thing. And voicing in Mandarin? It plays the inferior role to aspiration's main starring role, a role reversal of the English arrangement.
- cabalamat 5y ago
  > Unvoiced stops (p/t/k) in isolation "pat" or "cap" are moderately aspirated. Voiced stops (b/d/g) are not like "dog" or "bad". (Leaning on this pattern as a partial hack using a feature common in a lot of European languages, is why p and b are what they are in Pinyin, and many other Chinese romanizations.) Some languages, such as Hindi, have both the voiced/unvoiced and aspirated/unaspirated distinction, so they have 4 consonants (/t d th dh/) where English only has two (/t d/). Hindi also has retroflex equivalents of those 4 consonants, and there are minimal pairs between all 8 of them. A typical English speaker would struggle to tell the difference between them. For these sorts of reasons, a Romanisation of names in different languages that (1) is easy to pronounce for English speakers, and (2) sounds like the word in the original language, is going to be a tall order.

ylyn 5y ago

Compare the t in 'stellar' vs the t in 'tell'.

PeterisP 5y ago
What's the difference between the t in 'stellar' vs the t in 'tell'? I seem to pronounce them identically, dictionary pronunciation guides (https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/stellar?q=stellar https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis... and https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/tell?q=tell https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis...) do not make a distinction.. [edit] ah, one (!) of the two "tell" audio recordings in that dictionary seems to pronounce it in a different way that would illustrate the aspiration, but that seems different to how I've usually heard 'tell' being pronounced.
- bjowen 5y ago
  This is so hard to explain in text, given the variation of English accents and that aspiration is not meaningful in English. For my regional speech, the strongest difference would be something like the difference between the /k/ sounds in “kale” and “scale”. Nothing to do with my feelings for the vegetable, but it gets an extra scornful bit of turbulence.
- elros 5y ago
  Both recordings of the "tell" word exhibit aspiration. I guess it is perhaps more noticeable to me because I'm quite well-versed in phonetics. A common way of illustrating aspiration is: hold a sheet of paper in front of your mouth (or your hand), as you say the words. "tell" will give you a noticeable puff of air as it leaves the mouth, as opposed to "stellar", which won't. Maybe these recordings are helpful to you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant#Allophonic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant#Allophonic
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    Thanks, that was helpful, I seem to get the difference now - just the "tell" example wasn't working as I (apparently unlike most English speakers) seem to pronounce that word with an unaspirated t.
- kragen 5y ago
  Are you a native English speaker? It's common for native speakers to be pretty deaf to the differences between allophones. Try recording yourself in Audacity saying "Tell the stellar tart to start stewing a tall stall too," then highlight the two "tell" sounds and listen to them repeatedly. Also the two "tart" sounds, the two "too"/"tew" sounds, and the two "tall" sounds. Maybe you'll be able to hear the puff of white noise that's missing in "stellar", "start", "stew", and "stall". That's the aspiration.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

retrac 5y ago

The Wikipedia articles on it might be approachable for a layperson with no particular background. I studied some linguistics in university and it's a hobby interest so I can't really judge that anymore. The articles have plenty of sound examples. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_(phonetics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_(phonetics) English actually has all the relevant sounds in most dialects so I will try to explain in it reference to that. Most English dialects have environments where consonants are reliably aspirated, or not, depending on their voicing and surrounding environment. Unvoiced stops (p/t/k) in isolation "pat" or "cap" are moderately aspirated. Voiced stops (b/d/g) are not like "dog" or "bad". (Leaning on this pattern as a partial hack using a feature common in a lot of European languages, is why p and b are what they are in Pinyin, and many other Chinese romanizations.) In principle, if your dialect does not have a length contrast for /æ/ after a voiced consonant (many do though including mine, making the vowel longer in that environment, so you'll have to try to say them with equal vowel length) then "pap" and "bab" (to rhyme with cap and cat) when whispered (no vocal chord movement, so all equally unvoiced) should be differentiated only by aspiration similar to Mandarin's p/b difference. Though aspiration is Mandarin is a bit more forceful. As an aside, most people can hear the difference between those words when whispered, hearing a voiced or unvoiced consonant, based solely on the aspiration hint. Phonetic interpretation is a strange and subtle thing. And voicing in Mandarin? It plays the inferior role to aspiration's main starring role, a role reversal of the English arrangement.

cabalamat 5y ago
> Unvoiced stops (p/t/k) in isolation "pat" or "cap" are moderately aspirated. Voiced stops (b/d/g) are not like "dog" or "bad". (Leaning on this pattern as a partial hack using a feature common in a lot of European languages, is why p and b are what they are in Pinyin, and many other Chinese romanizations.) Some languages, such as Hindi, have both the voiced/unvoiced and aspirated/unaspirated distinction, so they have 4 consonants (/t d th dh/) where English only has two (/t d/). Hindi also has retroflex equivalents of those 4 consonants, and there are minimal pairs between all 8 of them. A typical English speaker would struggle to tell the difference between them. For these sorts of reasons, a Romanisation of names in different languages that (1) is easy to pronounce for English speakers, and (2) sounds like the word in the original language, is going to be a tall order.