5 ms·

"Over several decades, Vaupel has been the optimist of demography, telling us that somewhere in the world, human lifespan is always continuing to increase, as i

"Over several decades, Vaupel has been the optimist of demography, telling us that somewhere in the world, human lifespan is always continuing to increase, as it has done since 1840, at the rate of about 1 year of new lifespan for every 4 years that passes. For the first 130 years of this advance, the improvement in lifespan was predominantly about preventing infant mortality and combatting infectious disease. But since about 1970, lifespan improvements have continued to benefit the elderly." But what kind of life is it? Many elderly have lived miserable, hopeless lives, and when they age not only do they suffer bodily infirmities, but they're desperately lonely as for many of them all of their friends and family have died, or they've been abandoned by their families, they have no one to support them, and suffer from mental issues like dementia and depression on top of that. Little wonder that so many of the elderly commit suicide. Not to discourage anti-aging research, but if I had to prioritize I'd choose focusing on eliminating poverty, improving social safety nets, and building stronger communities. Improving mental health and helping people to live healthier lives while they're young so their bodies aren't in horrible shape by the time they're old would also make for good priorities.

sologoub 5y ago
While I agree those will yield a saner society and are worthy causes to focus one (personally, I still can’t get over the fact that you have to be at least a $50M+ net worth individual in US to truly not have to ever worry about medical-related bankruptcy - it won’t happen to most, but that fact that it can, short of a huge fortune, is just mind-boggling to me). The deeper driver for this loneliness is how fractured family and community ties have gotten over the last 50 years. When growing up outside of US, it was u thinkable that my elders could be left alone without much contact. It seems to be the norm here and thinking to my eventual future, I really don’t know what it will hold.
WalterBright 5y ago
Having visited nursing homes many times, what is going on in there can barely be considered living, even though many of the inmates linger for years in it. I say linger because that's what it looks like. I'd rather die before being placed in one.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  I can't speak for you of course and I have had a similar instinct, but I think there's another perspective that I personally don't yet grasp. Think of the famous Dylan Thomas poem, Do not go gentle into that good night Do not go gentle into that good night Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way, Do not go gentle into that good night. Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. I suspect many HN users have a similar perspective, as I have had. But one day I realized that the poem was published when Thomas was ~37 years old and dedicated to Thomas' father. I realized that it is not the wisdom of an elderly person, but a young person who (in my reading) realizes their parent's mortality and morbidity, and pleads desperately against it. Elderly people I know don't say these things. The parent's comment and Thomas' perspective make perfect sense for a younger person: If you are young, do not go gentle, and do not linger in a place like a nursing home - to demonstrate the difference in stages of life, a nursing home is accepted for elderly people, but just imagine the absurdity of a healthy 37 year old living in one; at that age, it would be indeed be barely living. An opium den would almost be seen as more acceptable. But in my experience and understanding, and again for reasons some of which I guess at but don't yet grasp, for elderly people it's very often different. Some elderly people I know well are much more accepting of death, in ways they don't often discuss with young people, just like they don't discuss many physical issues of aging - death is all around them; they have growing maladies and can't avoid risking death (a flu, a broken hip, Covid, etc., all carry that risk); their business includes planning their own deaths via wills, DNR instructions, etc.; and their friends and colleagues are not getting married, getting new jobs, having new kids, they are dying - and they are more tired of life. But what do I know? I think I know nothing, like a 13 year old talking about life at 37. Maybe Dylan Thomas (at age 37) and I are not quite ready to know the truth of old age. I don't tell teenagers many of the worst elements of adulthood; why burden them and take away the optimism and energy of youth? They will learn anyway, and now is their chance to enjoy what they have.
vmception 5y ago
If more people are going to live longer, so will more of their friends and more will retain fitness and health You chose to focus on that many, while ignoring the other many
seibelj 5y ago
Family is of utmost importance. A faceless entity, whether government run or private, doesn’t ultimately care about you as a person. An elderly person in nursing home care is a check, and a statistic, and something that a low-paid, low-skilled person has to bathe, clean up after, feed, etc. You need family to look after you - children, grand children, nieces, nephews, and so on. They are the people that will truly care and advocate for you, if you become incapable.
- decodebytes 5y ago
  There was a documentary in the UK which I just cannot remember the name of anymore. They have an African tribe (father and mother) exchange places with a middle class father and mother in a UK suburb. One interesting element was how the Africans were appalled that they put their mother into a care home, this was just unacceptable in their view.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    100-150 years ago it was common to have your elderly relatives home, too. But many people either worked in the fields around the same village or in a workshop located in the same house. The "commute 60 minutes to an office" culture is rather hostile to community living. As is the fact that many people aged 80 or so are alive, but not self-sufficient and need nursing. If you get a stroke in rural Africa (or in 19th century Europe), you just die and that's it. Your descendants do not need to worry about keeping you alive but bedridden for five more years.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  While I understand the general point, not all families care, or care well. See King Lear.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  Robotz! iCare
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  I'm not sure that I'd want to burden my family with my old-age care, I'd rather they lived their lives to the fullest than had me as a millstone around their necks preventing them from achieving their dreams. If I was ever incapacitated in a way that required 24/7 care in my old age I'd far rather make a dignified exit and have my descendants remember me by doing something meaningful to them than waste time and money on me when I'm too demented to even appreciate it. Of course, this will always be a deeply personal decision and there's no universal answer to this question.
xvector 5y ago
This is more of an artifact of Western society's relatively new and absurdly antisocial aversion to extended family, along the complete and utter failure of modern public planners, who design cities optimized for cars as opposed to walking and public transit, preventing the formation of close-knit communities.
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  And when you can’t afford a house for one person, there’s little hope of letting grandma live your guesthouse.
  - xvector 5y ago
    And you can chalk this down to more urban planning failure. Urban planners have so thoroughly ruined the social fabric of society with ideas they once thought "new" and "novel", and only just now have they realized the damage their choices have caused. The damage will take decades or even centuries to undo, as traditional towns and cities are replaced with walkable ones, an effort that will undoubtedly meet significant resistance as most people have dumped a sizable portion of their net worth into their vehicle.
- hoseja 5y ago
  If one were conspiratorially minded, they could see this as by design, so people give their loyalty to the employer and state only.
  - xvector 5y ago
    I think it was just sheer incompetence. If you look at subreddits like /r/urbanplanning, the mistakes are clearly recognized and modern urban planners are desperately trying to undo their predecessors' mistakes, but the hole has been dug, and these things take time.
    - ornornor 5y ago
      Wouldn’t people on that subreddit be similar to people on HN: fringe and rather ahead of the curve (relatively speaking)? I don’t know much about urban planning but I see it in tech: the stuff discussed on HN and presented as more or less normal/best practice isn’t being done or even thought of as “best practice” outside of the HN crowd. See enterprise development and a vast number of agencies or other companies that, together, make the bulk of the software being made and sold today where basic things like unit testing or the open/closed principle are seen as a waste of time and unnecessary.
dbcurtis 5y ago
> helping people to live healthier lives while they're young so their bodies aren't in horrible shape by the time they're old would also make for good priorities. Agree. But let me add that finding that sweet spot where the body isn't in horrible shape is not as easy as it might seem, based on my observation. My father-in-law was a Minnesota dairy farmer all his life. By his early 60's his body was utterly beat up by the hard work. I, on the other hand, got a little too soft and CRT-tanned over the years, so while not as beat up at the same age in some ways, my cardio health is not what it should be and I am rearranging my life to make room for more exercise and have made radical changes to my diet. But on the other, other hand, a friend's mom was a competitive athlete and active coach all of her life, and by her early 60's is as beat up as my father-in-law was. So there is such a thing as unhealthy exercise. Good diet, and the right amount of low-impact exercise would seem to be the path to enjoyable golden years. Which is such a broad statement as to be utterly un-actionable.... cue the arguments over diet and exercise. And then, of course, there is the issue of motivation, even if you could be told the One Correct Way..... (107 days without BBQ ribs... but who is counting??)
godelski 5y ago
Most of what I've read about anti-aging suggests that the same treatments would allow people to live longer and _healthier_ lives, which solves half the problems you're mentioning. But hey, maybe it doesn't and just pushes it back another 10 years. Still, I'll take an extra 10 healthy years. I'm not disagreeing with your premise that we should fix these social problems, but it feels a bit orthogonal. In addition to that, it seems like human policies are reactionary. So making people live longer seems like a good way to make these things more important to more people, and thus sufficient enough to pass the threshold to actually do something about it.

sologoub 5y ago

While I agree those will yield a saner society and are worthy causes to focus one (personally, I still can’t get over the fact that you have to be at least a $50M+ net worth individual in US to truly not have to ever worry about medical-related bankruptcy - it won’t happen to most, but that fact that it can, short of a huge fortune, is just mind-boggling to me). The deeper driver for this loneliness is how fractured family and community ties have gotten over the last 50 years. When growing up outside of US, it was u thinkable that my elders could be left alone without much contact. It seems to be the norm here and thinking to my eventual future, I really don’t know what it will hold.

WalterBright 5y ago

Having visited nursing homes many times, what is going on in there can barely be considered living, even though many of the inmates linger for years in it. I say linger because that's what it looks like. I'd rather die before being placed in one.

wolverine876 5y ago
I can't speak for you of course and I have had a similar instinct, but I think there's another perspective that I personally don't yet grasp. Think of the famous Dylan Thomas poem, Do not go gentle into that good night Do not go gentle into that good night Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way, Do not go gentle into that good night. Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. I suspect many HN users have a similar perspective, as I have had. But one day I realized that the poem was published when Thomas was ~37 years old and dedicated to Thomas' father. I realized that it is not the wisdom of an elderly person, but a young person who (in my reading) realizes their parent's mortality and morbidity, and pleads desperately against it. Elderly people I know don't say these things. The parent's comment and Thomas' perspective make perfect sense for a younger person: If you are young, do not go gentle, and do not linger in a place like a nursing home - to demonstrate the difference in stages of life, a nursing home is accepted for elderly people, but just imagine the absurdity of a healthy 37 year old living in one; at that age, it would be indeed be barely living. An opium den would almost be seen as more acceptable. But in my experience and understanding, and again for reasons some of which I guess at but don't yet grasp, for elderly people it's very often different. Some elderly people I know well are much more accepting of death, in ways they don't often discuss with young people, just like they don't discuss many physical issues of aging - death is all around them; they have growing maladies and can't avoid risking death (a flu, a broken hip, Covid, etc., all carry that risk); their business includes planning their own deaths via wills, DNR instructions, etc.; and their friends and colleagues are not getting married, getting new jobs, having new kids, they are dying - and they are more tired of life. But what do I know? I think I know nothing, like a 13 year old talking about life at 37. Maybe Dylan Thomas (at age 37) and I are not quite ready to know the truth of old age. I don't tell teenagers many of the worst elements of adulthood; why burden them and take away the optimism and energy of youth? They will learn anyway, and now is their chance to enjoy what they have.

vmception 5y ago

If more people are going to live longer, so will more of their friends and more will retain fitness and health You chose to focus on that many, while ignoring the other many

seibelj 5y ago

Family is of utmost importance. A faceless entity, whether government run or private, doesn’t ultimately care about you as a person. An elderly person in nursing home care is a check, and a statistic, and something that a low-paid, low-skilled person has to bathe, clean up after, feed, etc. You need family to look after you - children, grand children, nieces, nephews, and so on. They are the people that will truly care and advocate for you, if you become incapable.

decodebytes 5y ago
There was a documentary in the UK which I just cannot remember the name of anymore. They have an African tribe (father and mother) exchange places with a middle class father and mother in a UK suburb. One interesting element was how the Africans were appalled that they put their mother into a care home, this was just unacceptable in their view.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  100-150 years ago it was common to have your elderly relatives home, too. But many people either worked in the fields around the same village or in a workshop located in the same house. The "commute 60 minutes to an office" culture is rather hostile to community living. As is the fact that many people aged 80 or so are alive, but not self-sufficient and need nursing. If you get a stroke in rural Africa (or in 19th century Europe), you just die and that's it. Your descendants do not need to worry about keeping you alive but bedridden for five more years.
wolverine876 5y ago
While I understand the general point, not all families care, or care well. See King Lear.
LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
Robotz! iCare
BoxOfRain 5y ago
I'm not sure that I'd want to burden my family with my old-age care, I'd rather they lived their lives to the fullest than had me as a millstone around their necks preventing them from achieving their dreams. If I was ever incapacitated in a way that required 24/7 care in my old age I'd far rather make a dignified exit and have my descendants remember me by doing something meaningful to them than waste time and money on me when I'm too demented to even appreciate it. Of course, this will always be a deeply personal decision and there's no universal answer to this question.

xvector 5y ago

This is more of an artifact of Western society's relatively new and absurdly antisocial aversion to extended family, along the complete and utter failure of modern public planners, who design cities optimized for cars as opposed to walking and public transit, preventing the formation of close-knit communities.

devoutsalsa 5y ago
And when you can’t afford a house for one person, there’s little hope of letting grandma live your guesthouse.
- xvector 5y ago
  And you can chalk this down to more urban planning failure. Urban planners have so thoroughly ruined the social fabric of society with ideas they once thought "new" and "novel", and only just now have they realized the damage their choices have caused. The damage will take decades or even centuries to undo, as traditional towns and cities are replaced with walkable ones, an effort that will undoubtedly meet significant resistance as most people have dumped a sizable portion of their net worth into their vehicle.
hoseja 5y ago
If one were conspiratorially minded, they could see this as by design, so people give their loyalty to the employer and state only.
- xvector 5y ago
  I think it was just sheer incompetence. If you look at subreddits like /r/urbanplanning, the mistakes are clearly recognized and modern urban planners are desperately trying to undo their predecessors' mistakes, but the hole has been dug, and these things take time.
  - ornornor 5y ago
    Wouldn’t people on that subreddit be similar to people on HN: fringe and rather ahead of the curve (relatively speaking)? I don’t know much about urban planning but I see it in tech: the stuff discussed on HN and presented as more or less normal/best practice isn’t being done or even thought of as “best practice” outside of the HN crowd. See enterprise development and a vast number of agencies or other companies that, together, make the bulk of the software being made and sold today where basic things like unit testing or the open/closed principle are seen as a waste of time and unnecessary.

dbcurtis 5y ago

> helping people to live healthier lives while they're young so their bodies aren't in horrible shape by the time they're old would also make for good priorities. Agree. But let me add that finding that sweet spot where the body isn't in horrible shape is not as easy as it might seem, based on my observation. My father-in-law was a Minnesota dairy farmer all his life. By his early 60's his body was utterly beat up by the hard work. I, on the other hand, got a little too soft and CRT-tanned over the years, so while not as beat up at the same age in some ways, my cardio health is not what it should be and I am rearranging my life to make room for more exercise and have made radical changes to my diet. But on the other, other hand, a friend's mom was a competitive athlete and active coach all of her life, and by her early 60's is as beat up as my father-in-law was. So there is such a thing as unhealthy exercise. Good diet, and the right amount of low-impact exercise would seem to be the path to enjoyable golden years. Which is such a broad statement as to be utterly un-actionable.... cue the arguments over diet and exercise. And then, of course, there is the issue of motivation, even if you could be told the One Correct Way..... (107 days without BBQ ribs... but who is counting??)

godelski 5y ago

Most of what I've read about anti-aging suggests that the same treatments would allow people to live longer and _healthier_ lives, which solves half the problems you're mentioning. But hey, maybe it doesn't and just pushes it back another 10 years. Still, I'll take an extra 10 healthy years. I'm not disagreeing with your premise that we should fix these social problems, but it feels a bit orthogonal. In addition to that, it seems like human policies are reactionary. So making people live longer seems like a good way to make these things more important to more people, and thus sufficient enough to pass the threshold to actually do something about it.