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> Don't make it a moral argument that frames drivers as sinners and pedestrians, cyclists, etc as The Good Guys. I agree with you, but as someone who's been vo

> Don't make it a moral argument that frames drivers as sinners and pedestrians, cyclists, etc as The Good Guys. I agree with you, but as someone who's been vocally anti-car for a long time _without_ ever blaming drivers, I've also noticed that people make it enough a part of their identity that they will do this for you. Most car owners are rationally responding to a powerful incentive system; many aren't on the margin where alternatives are feasible for them. But discussion of the negatives of car-oriented _systems_ is enough for most people This isn't especially surprising. Most people aren't capable enough of processing high-dimensional concepts to separate participation in a harmful system from personal culpability for all of the harms of the system.

JohnFen 5y ago
> I've also noticed that people make it enough a part of their identity that they will do this for you. Yes, this is a problem. That we here in the US tend to think of cars as an expression of our identities is a deep-rooted issue. Like most social issues, this isn't one that can be resolved easily or quickly.
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  > That we here in the US tend to think of cars as an expression of our identities is a deep-rooted issue. I actually don't mean it this way. The people that I'm thinking of aren't in a social class/subculture that takes pride in cars per se. Especially as my generation has urbanized so heavily, if anything having a car is coded lower-class. As an example, imagine a New Yorker/San Franciscan sniffing about how they've never owned a car and "barely even know how to drive". They're definitely not saying so in embarrassment (this caricature may or may not be closer to me than I'd like to admit...) What I'm talking about is a broader inability to separate being stuck in a collective action problem from taking responsibility for the whole problem. Most people just don't have the moral reasoning ability to understand that "a car-oriented system is harmful" is different from "_you_ are harming people by participating in/being stuck in a car-oriented system".

JohnFen 5y ago

> I've also noticed that people make it enough a part of their identity that they will do this for you. Yes, this is a problem. That we here in the US tend to think of cars as an expression of our identities is a deep-rooted issue. Like most social issues, this isn't one that can be resolved easily or quickly.

wutbrodo 5y ago
> That we here in the US tend to think of cars as an expression of our identities is a deep-rooted issue. I actually don't mean it this way. The people that I'm thinking of aren't in a social class/subculture that takes pride in cars per se. Especially as my generation has urbanized so heavily, if anything having a car is coded lower-class. As an example, imagine a New Yorker/San Franciscan sniffing about how they've never owned a car and "barely even know how to drive". They're definitely not saying so in embarrassment (this caricature may or may not be closer to me than I'd like to admit...) What I'm talking about is a broader inability to separate being stuck in a collective action problem from taking responsibility for the whole problem. Most people just don't have the moral reasoning ability to understand that "a car-oriented system is harmful" is different from "_you_ are harming people by participating in/being stuck in a car-oriented system".