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I love how people think all it takes to excuse potentially lethal undefined behavior is that it's documented somewhere: > This sounds to be precisely the type

I love how people think all it takes to excuse potentially lethal undefined behavior is that it's documented somewhere: > This sounds to be precisely the type of roads where autopilot/autosteer should not be used - it is not limited by entry and exit ramps. If autopilot/autosteer is used in circumstances where it is not for use, then from time to time it is going to perform in an undefined way. > Using ANY tool outside its operating environment will be dangerous. Put your experience down to user error.

Swenrekcah 5y ago
Exactly. If Tesla and Musk didn’t aggressively market their cruise control as Full self driving only a few months from level 5! then nobody would be criticising them.
- dataflow 5y ago
  The marketing is certainly a big part of it, but I think it's a mistake to think there aren't significant issues here that would remain even with better marketing. One big problem is the sheer unpredictability of what's going to happen the next moment. If you turn on cruise control on the wrong street, its behavior is still going to be entirely predictable. You're simply not going to get suddenly erratic behavior just because you pressed the cruise-control button. Autopilot on the other hand seems to actively make the situation far more unpredictable than it would otherwise be, increasing the dangers people find themselves in. That's just horrible by any standards I can consider sane, no matter how it's marketed. Another (somewhat related, somewhat distinct) problem is that a system that works (say) 99% of the time and fails 1% of the time can easily be more dangerous than one that works 20% of the time and fails 80% of the time. (Obviously I made up the numbers, but adjust accordingly.) If you have to constantly correct something, then you're used to it; it's second nature to you. But if you might get used to it working too well... then as a human you won't be necessarily ready for the rare cases, especially when they're more difficult to predict. So an autopilot that works 'better' than something like cruise control can easily end up being more dangerous because of this, and it would be a mistake to hold them to identical standards.
  - Swenrekcah 5y ago
    You’re right. This also is made even worse with OTA updates since a user might have learned one type of situation response only to learn the hard way that it just changed. So I guess I have to take back my earlier comment then, they’d still be criticised! I’m not hating on Tesla, they make beautiful cars and tremendously fun to drive. If I had $50k to spend frivolously I’d buy one in a heartbeat (without “FSD”!).
akerl_ 5y ago
Given that the Tesla can tell the difference between road types (as evidenced by the fact that it applies different speed caps to divided highways, and will only enable Navigate-on-Autopilot on interstates), if Autosteer is only designed for such roads it seems odd that it allows drivers to enable it anywhere it can parse the road lines.
rvz 5y ago
Well it seems that the commenters on the Tesla Motors Club really should not put any trust in a beta product feature and must keep all eyes on the road at all times when driving. Seems like Tesla manufactured a reality distortion field with FSD to market it like a fully self-driving vehicle where that is no where near the case as it is still admittedly Level 2 cruise control. Not the over-promised 'Level 5' FSD. I'm not going into the pricing of this, since that is a complete scam and on this, Tesla really took their customers for a self-driving ride for years on a beta product feature that still doesn't work as advertised. No thanks and no deal.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Tesla's own marketing[1] conflicts with their documentation, then: > Build upon Enhanced Autopilot and order Full Self-Driving Capability on your Tesla. This doubles the number of active cameras from four to eight, enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat. For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle. The following is almost unchanged on Tesla's current Autopilot page[2]: > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2016/10/21/behind-teslas-headlines-the-military-drives-autonomous-vehicles/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2016/10/21/behind-t... [2] https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
- dataflow 5y ago
  Selling people self-driving "capability" is like selling them "access" to healthcare. Great for marketing because it completely obscures how hard if not impossible it can be to actually utilize the thing you have the "access" or "capability" to, or how available it is to you in the first place.
- URSpider94 5y ago
  This is all written in terms of future capabilities of the system that it doesn’t have today, but that’s extremely unclear to many people who buy Tesla’s.
  - ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago

Swenrekcah 5y ago

Exactly. If Tesla and Musk didn’t aggressively market their cruise control as Full self driving only a few months from level 5! then nobody would be criticising them.

dataflow 5y ago
The marketing is certainly a big part of it, but I think it's a mistake to think there aren't significant issues here that would remain even with better marketing. One big problem is the sheer unpredictability of what's going to happen the next moment. If you turn on cruise control on the wrong street, its behavior is still going to be entirely predictable. You're simply not going to get suddenly erratic behavior just because you pressed the cruise-control button. Autopilot on the other hand seems to actively make the situation far more unpredictable than it would otherwise be, increasing the dangers people find themselves in. That's just horrible by any standards I can consider sane, no matter how it's marketed. Another (somewhat related, somewhat distinct) problem is that a system that works (say) 99% of the time and fails 1% of the time can easily be more dangerous than one that works 20% of the time and fails 80% of the time. (Obviously I made up the numbers, but adjust accordingly.) If you have to constantly correct something, then you're used to it; it's second nature to you. But if you might get used to it working too well... then as a human you won't be necessarily ready for the rare cases, especially when they're more difficult to predict. So an autopilot that works 'better' than something like cruise control can easily end up being more dangerous because of this, and it would be a mistake to hold them to identical standards.
- Swenrekcah 5y ago
  You’re right. This also is made even worse with OTA updates since a user might have learned one type of situation response only to learn the hard way that it just changed. So I guess I have to take back my earlier comment then, they’d still be criticised! I’m not hating on Tesla, they make beautiful cars and tremendously fun to drive. If I had $50k to spend frivolously I’d buy one in a heartbeat (without “FSD”!).

akerl_ 5y ago

Given that the Tesla can tell the difference between road types (as evidenced by the fact that it applies different speed caps to divided highways, and will only enable Navigate-on-Autopilot on interstates), if Autosteer is only designed for such roads it seems odd that it allows drivers to enable it anywhere it can parse the road lines.

rvz 5y ago

Well it seems that the commenters on the Tesla Motors Club really should not put any trust in a beta product feature and must keep all eyes on the road at all times when driving. Seems like Tesla manufactured a reality distortion field with FSD to market it like a fully self-driving vehicle where that is no where near the case as it is still admittedly Level 2 cruise control. Not the over-promised 'Level 5' FSD. I'm not going into the pricing of this, since that is a complete scam and on this, Tesla really took their customers for a self-driving ride for years on a beta product feature that still doesn't work as advertised. No thanks and no deal.

heavyset_go 5y ago

Tesla's own marketing[1] conflicts with their documentation, then: > Build upon Enhanced Autopilot and order Full Self-Driving Capability on your Tesla. This doubles the number of active cameras from four to eight, enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat. For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle. The following is almost unchanged on Tesla's current Autopilot page[2]: > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2016/10/21/behind-teslas-headlines-the-military-drives-autonomous-vehicles/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2016/10/21/behind-t... [2] https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot

dataflow 5y ago
Selling people self-driving "capability" is like selling them "access" to healthcare. Great for marketing because it completely obscures how hard if not impossible it can be to actually utilize the thing you have the "access" or "capability" to, or how available it is to you in the first place.
URSpider94 5y ago
This is all written in terms of future capabilities of the system that it doesn’t have today, but that’s extremely unclear to many people who buy Tesla’s.
- ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago