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Another end user mistaking marketing hype behind 'AutoPilot' as 'Full Self Driving' (E.G. that level 5 driving feature). As other users in that forum thread po

Another end user mistaking marketing hype behind 'AutoPilot' as 'Full Self Driving' (E.G. that level 5 driving feature). As other users in that forum thread point out, the current software is more like enhanced cruise control, lane keeping, and automatic breaking assist. It is also //only intended// for //limited access highways and freeways// e.g. onramp / offramp limited.

rdtwo 5y ago
Sounds like break assist is assisting a bit too hard
nikau 5y ago
Yes and it should be gps fenced to only activate where safe. Tesla aren't doing the right thing voluntarily so regulators need to step in.
- fksadfji12 5y ago
  Why? Should they do it for cruise control too?
- Taek 5y ago
  Isn't it the case that the death rate per miles driven is lower in the Teslas than almost any other vehicle on the road?
  - dlp211 5y ago
    No. This is Tesla spin. The Tesla is no safer than any other luxury vehicle which it shares it's demographics with.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    Also, it is an inherently screwed data collection, where people will drive manually in more dangerous situations - so you pretty much get a statistics on going on a straight line for hundreds of kilometers, except for the actually problematic intersection/people walking before after the car, etc.
  - deelowe 5y ago
    They need to compare against cars in the same class, not the whole industry. Also, I’m not sure death per miles is the right metric. What matters is the accident rate while operating in cruise.
throwawaymale 5y ago
This does not accurately represent what the telsa owner reported. Their vehicle aggressively applied the brakes where there was no apparent need.
crummy 5y ago
I don't think what he describes fits "full self driving" - I would have expected autopilot to handle it OK. That said I didn't realise autopilot is only intended for highways and freeways. Maybe that's not explicit enough?
- Barrin92 5y ago
  That's the exact reason a German court barred them from using that very label last year in advertising material. They need to start calling it what it is, driving assistance. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/tesla-autopilot-self-driving-false-advertising-germany.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/tesla-autopilot-self-driving...
  - crummy 5y ago
    I wouldn't expect "driving assistance" to slam on the brakes abruptly like that either.
deleted 5y ago
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deleted 5y ago
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fksadfji12 5y ago
Exactly this. It's like turning on cruise control and blaming it for rear ending someone at a slow down.
- dataflow 5y ago
  No, it's not. I know exactly what my car is going to do when I turn on cruise control no matter the circumstances. It's predictable as hell. With autopilot you have no clue what's going to happen a split second later if you use it on an unblessed street.
rvz 5y ago
Falsely advertised and packaged as 'Full Self Driving' by Tesla for years, but recently admitted to be Level 2 cruise control rather than the 'ambitious' so-called Level 5 that was repeatedly due for last year. This is more like 'Fools Self Driving' I'm afraid. Especially with messing around with beta software that doesn't function properly as advertised.
judge2020 5y ago
To be fair it is also referred to to as such in the car UI and in the disclosures that appear before you enable them (lane keeping vs. auto steer isn't too different in my opinion - both terms imply a regular competent driver, not some "always perfect" driver).
akerl_ 5y ago
If enhanced cruise control in my non-Tesla routinely slammed on the breaks out of nowhere, I’d be pissed about that too. Tesla’s marketing is optimized to convince users that the software is better than it is, and the software’s failure modes align horribly with the worst case: when things are working, everything is smooth, but without warning the car will suddenly decide to make a dangerous active change (swerving, braking, etc) in a way that can kill a driver who is even partially distracted. Put the above together and it starts to look like Elon has created a perfect storm for traffic accidents.
- peytoncasper 5y ago
  I'm not justifying how Tesla's assistance works as I've driven a rental and it really is glorified cruise control right now. That being said, I have a Honda with assistive braking and it is terrible. Shadows, pot holes, ghosts all seem to cause it to brake and not in predictable ways which is frustrating. I only leave it on, because I imagine one day I won't quite react fast enough to someone in front of me and it will save me the pain of rear ending someone. But I definitely almost did when it slammed the brakes on a highway off ramp and got me rightfully honked at by the car behind me. Whats worse is I'm not even sure if mine could receive updates at any point. Maybe at the dealership.
  - bussierem 5y ago
    I have a Subaru with assistive braking (EyeSight) and it does the exact same thing on a very specific off ramp. My best guess was that it's detecting the big yellow "turn" sign right before the loop. It's about big enough to be the back of a car to the primitive detection. That's not a solution for you, just thought I would share commiseration. Your experience with it is slightly worse than mine has been but I leave mine on for the exact same reason.
  - jsight 5y ago
    IMO, Tesla is a bit worse, but I agree with this in principle. I've had other cars phantom brake in similar situations. The worst phantom brakes that I've had from AP were cases where a car really was creeping into my lane a bit. Its just that hard braking wasn't the right fix for the situation as a slight swerve was safer.
dzhiurgis 5y ago
Ok, fair, whatever. But can one use Tesla with normal radar cruise control? Systems like these been super robust for over a decade if not two. Can one disable all these proactive security features that seem to not work.
- URSpider94 5y ago
  Yes, you can, that’s called traffic aware cruise control (TACC), and is activated with a single pull on the stick. TACC absolutely does exactly what is mentioned in this article - it suffers from phantom braking where it hauls the car to a stop suddenly in the middle of the highway. Yes, other cars with radar cruise control don’t seem to do this.
ziftface 5y ago
Yes, autopilot is just cruise control. No other cruise control I've used before violently brakes on the highway for no reason. I don't think expecting it to not do that is unreasonable.
ineedasername 5y ago
In other cars, similar features are restricted to when the vehicle's sensors are 1) able to discern clear lane lines and 2) the vehicle is traveling above a certain speed. Otherwise they're automatically turned off. This seems like a pretty easy way to ensure the features are not misused. If you're going under a certain speed or lines aren't painted (or they're unclear) you are more likely to not be on the type of road or situation recommended for these features. Also something to remember: actual pilots that use real auto pilot in planes have countless hours of training in how to properly integrate its use into the operation of the plane.
- judge2020 5y ago
  > In other cars, In Tesla's too, just not the speed part - I don't think you can assume highways are always above 45 miles an hour, especially if you've ever been on an interstate with lanes closed during rush hour.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    That's what I mean though: these features are not really ideal for traffic that isn't flowing smoothly. Rush hour with a lane closed is a scenario where the driver should be fully aware & in control. Behavior is often unpredictable in such cases with tightly spaced cars and frustrated drivers.
    - frumper 5y ago
      Many manufacturers now offer those features to a stop, or even stop and go situations
    - judge2020 5y ago
      I've been in such traffic and the only issue is TACC's 1-2 car spacing allows more people in to my lane than I usually allow, but otherwise it does fine. Tesla's TACC (compared to Honda) is even better in this sense since it often accelerates at the same time as the car in front of it, while Honda's will wait for a 1 car gap to continue driving on its own.
wpietri 5y ago
If by "mistaking marketing hype" you mean "believing the actual words that they were told", I guess. But I think that goes well beyond the sort of puffery [1] that is legal because nobody believes it. Indeed, I'd argue that Tesla's valuation is precisely based on people believing it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery

rdtwo 5y ago

Sounds like break assist is assisting a bit too hard

nikau 5y ago

Yes and it should be gps fenced to only activate where safe. Tesla aren't doing the right thing voluntarily so regulators need to step in.

fksadfji12 5y ago
Why? Should they do it for cruise control too?
Taek 5y ago
Isn't it the case that the death rate per miles driven is lower in the Teslas than almost any other vehicle on the road?
- dlp211 5y ago
  No. This is Tesla spin. The Tesla is no safer than any other luxury vehicle which it shares it's demographics with.
- kaba0 5y ago
  Also, it is an inherently screwed data collection, where people will drive manually in more dangerous situations - so you pretty much get a statistics on going on a straight line for hundreds of kilometers, except for the actually problematic intersection/people walking before after the car, etc.
- deelowe 5y ago
  They need to compare against cars in the same class, not the whole industry. Also, I’m not sure death per miles is the right metric. What matters is the accident rate while operating in cruise.

throwawaymale 5y ago

This does not accurately represent what the telsa owner reported. Their vehicle aggressively applied the brakes where there was no apparent need.

crummy 5y ago

I don't think what he describes fits "full self driving" - I would have expected autopilot to handle it OK. That said I didn't realise autopilot is only intended for highways and freeways. Maybe that's not explicit enough?

Barrin92 5y ago
That's the exact reason a German court barred them from using that very label last year in advertising material. They need to start calling it what it is, driving assistance. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/tesla-autopilot-self-driving-false-advertising-germany.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/tesla-autopilot-self-driving...
- crummy 5y ago
  I wouldn't expect "driving assistance" to slam on the brakes abruptly like that either.

deleted 5y ago

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deleted 5y ago

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fksadfji12 5y ago

Exactly this. It's like turning on cruise control and blaming it for rear ending someone at a slow down.

dataflow 5y ago
No, it's not. I know exactly what my car is going to do when I turn on cruise control no matter the circumstances. It's predictable as hell. With autopilot you have no clue what's going to happen a split second later if you use it on an unblessed street.

rvz 5y ago

Falsely advertised and packaged as 'Full Self Driving' by Tesla for years, but recently admitted to be Level 2 cruise control rather than the 'ambitious' so-called Level 5 that was repeatedly due for last year. This is more like 'Fools Self Driving' I'm afraid. Especially with messing around with beta software that doesn't function properly as advertised.

judge2020 5y ago

To be fair it is also referred to to as such in the car UI and in the disclosures that appear before you enable them (lane keeping vs. auto steer isn't too different in my opinion - both terms imply a regular competent driver, not some "always perfect" driver).

akerl_ 5y ago

If enhanced cruise control in my non-Tesla routinely slammed on the breaks out of nowhere, I’d be pissed about that too. Tesla’s marketing is optimized to convince users that the software is better than it is, and the software’s failure modes align horribly with the worst case: when things are working, everything is smooth, but without warning the car will suddenly decide to make a dangerous active change (swerving, braking, etc) in a way that can kill a driver who is even partially distracted. Put the above together and it starts to look like Elon has created a perfect storm for traffic accidents.

peytoncasper 5y ago
I'm not justifying how Tesla's assistance works as I've driven a rental and it really is glorified cruise control right now. That being said, I have a Honda with assistive braking and it is terrible. Shadows, pot holes, ghosts all seem to cause it to brake and not in predictable ways which is frustrating. I only leave it on, because I imagine one day I won't quite react fast enough to someone in front of me and it will save me the pain of rear ending someone. But I definitely almost did when it slammed the brakes on a highway off ramp and got me rightfully honked at by the car behind me. Whats worse is I'm not even sure if mine could receive updates at any point. Maybe at the dealership.
- bussierem 5y ago
  I have a Subaru with assistive braking (EyeSight) and it does the exact same thing on a very specific off ramp. My best guess was that it's detecting the big yellow "turn" sign right before the loop. It's about big enough to be the back of a car to the primitive detection. That's not a solution for you, just thought I would share commiseration. Your experience with it is slightly worse than mine has been but I leave mine on for the exact same reason.
- jsight 5y ago
  IMO, Tesla is a bit worse, but I agree with this in principle. I've had other cars phantom brake in similar situations. The worst phantom brakes that I've had from AP were cases where a car really was creeping into my lane a bit. Its just that hard braking wasn't the right fix for the situation as a slight swerve was safer.

dzhiurgis 5y ago

Ok, fair, whatever. But can one use Tesla with normal radar cruise control? Systems like these been super robust for over a decade if not two. Can one disable all these proactive security features that seem to not work.

URSpider94 5y ago
Yes, you can, that’s called traffic aware cruise control (TACC), and is activated with a single pull on the stick. TACC absolutely does exactly what is mentioned in this article - it suffers from phantom braking where it hauls the car to a stop suddenly in the middle of the highway. Yes, other cars with radar cruise control don’t seem to do this.

ziftface 5y ago

Yes, autopilot is just cruise control. No other cruise control I've used before violently brakes on the highway for no reason. I don't think expecting it to not do that is unreasonable.

ineedasername 5y ago

In other cars, similar features are restricted to when the vehicle's sensors are 1) able to discern clear lane lines and 2) the vehicle is traveling above a certain speed. Otherwise they're automatically turned off. This seems like a pretty easy way to ensure the features are not misused. If you're going under a certain speed or lines aren't painted (or they're unclear) you are more likely to not be on the type of road or situation recommended for these features. Also something to remember: actual pilots that use real auto pilot in planes have countless hours of training in how to properly integrate its use into the operation of the plane.

judge2020 5y ago
> In other cars, In Tesla's too, just not the speed part - I don't think you can assume highways are always above 45 miles an hour, especially if you've ever been on an interstate with lanes closed during rush hour.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  That's what I mean though: these features are not really ideal for traffic that isn't flowing smoothly. Rush hour with a lane closed is a scenario where the driver should be fully aware & in control. Behavior is often unpredictable in such cases with tightly spaced cars and frustrated drivers.
  - frumper 5y ago
    Many manufacturers now offer those features to a stop, or even stop and go situations
  - judge2020 5y ago
    I've been in such traffic and the only issue is TACC's 1-2 car spacing allows more people in to my lane than I usually allow, but otherwise it does fine. Tesla's TACC (compared to Honda) is even better in this sense since it often accelerates at the same time as the car in front of it, while Honda's will wait for a 1 car gap to continue driving on its own.

wpietri 5y ago

If by "mistaking marketing hype" you mean "believing the actual words that they were told", I guess. But I think that goes well beyond the sort of puffery [1] that is legal because nobody believes it. Indeed, I'd argue that Tesla's valuation is precisely based on people believing it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery