7 ms·

The large city I live in is now converting its old sodium lights to new LED lights. Instead of a soft yellow glow, the LED lights are a hard blue light, and so

by acabal 5y ago

The large city I live in is now converting its old sodium lights to new LED lights. Instead of a soft yellow glow, the LED lights are a hard blue light, and so bright that you can't even look at the lamps directly. Even a quick glance burns your eyes. Perhaps they use less energy, but the color, not to mention the brightness, is deeply unpleasant. I've wondered how these new very bright LEDs will affect wildlife and insects. Not positively, I think.

warglebargle 5y ago
the bluer lights allegedly reduce crime, so as long as that dubious stat sticks in people’s minds we’re stuck with them
zbrozek 5y ago
And it doesn't even have to be that way! We have the power to choose something different. I've seen nice indirect lighting fixtures that aren't nearly as harsh, or lights that are warmer. They're just not the norm. Or frankly just don't have street lights. I moved somewhere that doesn't have them, and I don't miss them at all. And I found out that I did miss darkness and was glad to reclaim it. Illuminated billboards should just be illegal.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  You might have a different opinion of street lights if you've ever had to walk alone in the dark.
  - zbrozek 5y ago
    Given that I live in an area that's dark, I walk alone in the dark all the time. I'm just one of the lucky minority of people that manages to escape being ruled by unsubstantiated or irrational fear.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      Fear of stepping on something or falling or worse is not all that irrational. One might say your stance seems reckless or irrational.
      - zbrozek 5y ago
        I don't need to illuminate the whole space all night to see where I'm going. I carry a flashlight on night walks. It light pollutes only the area right in front of me.
      - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
        I was actually thinking of crime, etc. Even if you live in a safe area, darkness creates opportunities. And while I'm hesitant to bring this into it—if you're a man, consider if you weren't.
    - cafard 5y ago
      Cool. I used to walk in the dark all the time. Then I got held up at gunpoint. It was not at that point practical for me to avoid walking in the dark, so I continued, though trying to be more aware of my surroundings. But such fear as I felt did not seem unsubstantiated or irrational.
4ad 5y ago
You might be interested in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40.
jonstewart 5y ago
My neighborhood in Washington, DC recently replaced a number of old sodium streetlights with new LED streetlights. The number of lights was doubled, but power consumption was still halved. The ballasts on the LEDs angle down at about 45 degrees—light pollution is reduced by 80% as a result. The LEDs are a much brighter color temperature but I worked with the city to get them reduced from 4000K to 3000K (which has very little blue light). All in all, a big win. There are technical solutions these days, and they pay for themselves. However, municipalities often operate on auto-pilot; let your local officials know where you want them to head.
- etrautmann 5y ago
  Isn’t the ballast only required for a fluorescent bulb?
  - masklinn 5y ago
    They probably mean lampshade / directionality. Ballasts are a current-limiting device, they would not influence the light geometry.
  - jonstewart 5y ago
    They meant the LED device, ie “bulb.” DC’s transportation department referred to it as a ballast; that might be inaccurate.
wusher 5y ago
I was frequently walking my dogs at night when they made the switch in my town. I noticed I my visibility was greatly reduced because the LED lights were less diffuse. Anything under the lights I could see just fine but a few feet away was under the vale of darkness.
- cameronh90 5y ago
  That may be somewhat intentional. There has been more focus lately on reducing light pollution by ensuring light is projected towards the ground. It's true that LEDs are more naturally directional than other types of lamp, but mirrors and lenses can adjust that if desired.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  A lot of lamps in the past had little cut-off, sometimes sending light straight up. New designs, especially Dark Sky approved ones, tend to concentrate a lot more light straight down (0˚), with some spill over over out to 60˚ to the side, but having a hard-ish cut-off by 80˚. If you simply do a 1:1 replacement of street lamp heads, the new more narrowly-focused units will of course not "splash" light as far—but who wants to install new poles for the new design?
throw0101a 5y ago
> the LED lights are a hard blue light The Dark Sky folks recommend <3500K for colour temperature: * https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-industry/fsa/ https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus... Another criteria to get their seal is controlling the angle that the light comes out to control for glare and such. Roadway lighting: * https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-industry/fsa/fsa-products/#!/Roadway/c/12536252 https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus... Street: * https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-industry/fsa/fsa-products/#!/Street/c/12499374 https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus...
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
LEDs can be just about any brightness and color, your city just chose harsh blue ones!
Robotbeat 5y ago
It's easier to filter out the old sodium lights, too, for astronomy and astrophotography. (although these are essentially hobbies... I do think the other broader arguments in favor of stopping light pollution and making the night sky visible to people again are stronger.)
fy20 5y ago
My city replaced it's old sodium lights with LEDs this year, and I was afraid they would do something similar but it's actually much better. The LEDs they installed have a much narrower beam, around 45 degrees vs 180 for the sodium lamps. My apartment is at the level of street lamps, so the light would shine in directly through the window in the living room. Now I get only reflected light in. The LED lights have around the same intensity as the sodium lamps, and because of the smaller beam angle, streets feel darker. However as the light is directed mainly on the road, it doesn't have any impact on driving. The colour temperature is around 3500K which is still a bit colder than what I'd prefer. The colour temperature of sodium lamps definately invokes feelings of nostalgia. Part of this is because getting warmer than ~3000K LEDs is basically impossible as there is very little market demand, so nobody makes them.

by acabal 5y ago

warglebargle 5y ago

the bluer lights allegedly reduce crime, so as long as that dubious stat sticks in people’s minds we’re stuck with them

zbrozek 5y ago

And it doesn't even have to be that way! We have the power to choose something different. I've seen nice indirect lighting fixtures that aren't nearly as harsh, or lights that are warmer. They're just not the norm. Or frankly just don't have street lights. I moved somewhere that doesn't have them, and I don't miss them at all. And I found out that I did miss darkness and was glad to reclaim it. Illuminated billboards should just be illegal.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
You might have a different opinion of street lights if you've ever had to walk alone in the dark.
- zbrozek 5y ago
  Given that I live in an area that's dark, I walk alone in the dark all the time. I'm just one of the lucky minority of people that manages to escape being ruled by unsubstantiated or irrational fear.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Fear of stepping on something or falling or worse is not all that irrational. One might say your stance seems reckless or irrational.
    - zbrozek 5y ago
      I don't need to illuminate the whole space all night to see where I'm going. I carry a flashlight on night walks. It light pollutes only the area right in front of me.
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      I was actually thinking of crime, etc. Even if you live in a safe area, darkness creates opportunities. And while I'm hesitant to bring this into it—if you're a man, consider if you weren't.
  - cafard 5y ago
    Cool. I used to walk in the dark all the time. Then I got held up at gunpoint. It was not at that point practical for me to avoid walking in the dark, so I continued, though trying to be more aware of my surroundings. But such fear as I felt did not seem unsubstantiated or irrational.

4ad 5y ago

You might be interested in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40.

jonstewart 5y ago

My neighborhood in Washington, DC recently replaced a number of old sodium streetlights with new LED streetlights. The number of lights was doubled, but power consumption was still halved. The ballasts on the LEDs angle down at about 45 degrees—light pollution is reduced by 80% as a result. The LEDs are a much brighter color temperature but I worked with the city to get them reduced from 4000K to 3000K (which has very little blue light). All in all, a big win. There are technical solutions these days, and they pay for themselves. However, municipalities often operate on auto-pilot; let your local officials know where you want them to head.

etrautmann 5y ago
Isn’t the ballast only required for a fluorescent bulb?
- masklinn 5y ago
  They probably mean lampshade / directionality. Ballasts are a current-limiting device, they would not influence the light geometry.
- jonstewart 5y ago
  They meant the LED device, ie “bulb.” DC’s transportation department referred to it as a ballast; that might be inaccurate.

wusher 5y ago

I was frequently walking my dogs at night when they made the switch in my town. I noticed I my visibility was greatly reduced because the LED lights were less diffuse. Anything under the lights I could see just fine but a few feet away was under the vale of darkness.

cameronh90 5y ago
That may be somewhat intentional. There has been more focus lately on reducing light pollution by ensuring light is projected towards the ground. It's true that LEDs are more naturally directional than other types of lamp, but mirrors and lenses can adjust that if desired.
throw0101a 5y ago
A lot of lamps in the past had little cut-off, sometimes sending light straight up. New designs, especially Dark Sky approved ones, tend to concentrate a lot more light straight down (0˚), with some spill over over out to 60˚ to the side, but having a hard-ish cut-off by 80˚. If you simply do a 1:1 replacement of street lamp heads, the new more narrowly-focused units will of course not "splash" light as far—but who wants to install new poles for the new design?

throw0101a 5y ago

> the LED lights are a hard blue light The Dark Sky folks recommend <3500K for colour temperature: * https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-industry/fsa/ https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus... Another criteria to get their seal is controlling the angle that the light comes out to control for glare and such. Roadway lighting: * https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-industry/fsa/fsa-products/#!/Roadway/c/12536252 https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus... Street: * https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-industry/fsa/fsa-products/#!/Street/c/12499374 https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus...

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

LEDs can be just about any brightness and color, your city just chose harsh blue ones!

Robotbeat 5y ago

It's easier to filter out the old sodium lights, too, for astronomy and astrophotography. (although these are essentially hobbies... I do think the other broader arguments in favor of stopping light pollution and making the night sky visible to people again are stronger.)

fy20 5y ago

My city replaced it's old sodium lights with LEDs this year, and I was afraid they would do something similar but it's actually much better. The LEDs they installed have a much narrower beam, around 45 degrees vs 180 for the sodium lamps. My apartment is at the level of street lamps, so the light would shine in directly through the window in the living room. Now I get only reflected light in. The LED lights have around the same intensity as the sodium lamps, and because of the smaller beam angle, streets feel darker. However as the light is directed mainly on the road, it doesn't have any impact on driving. The colour temperature is around 3500K which is still a bit colder than what I'd prefer. The colour temperature of sodium lamps definately invokes feelings of nostalgia. Part of this is because getting warmer than ~3000K LEDs is basically impossible as there is very little market demand, so nobody makes them.