6 ms·

You can use propane for the refrigerant. The halflife in the atmosphere is pretty short. Its cheap, non toxic and fairly well understood. In the EU/UK it also

You can use propane for the refrigerant. The halflife in the atmosphere is pretty short. Its cheap, non toxic and fairly well understood. In the EU/UK it also has the advantage of not needing a license to install yourself. Obviously this new technology is important, but its not here now.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Rational people turn into tantrum throwing toddlers and absolutely go crazy if you suggest using a flammable hydrocarbon as a refrigerant (never-mind that many refrigerants are already flammable hydrocarbons or nasty in indoor spaces to the point where propane isn't worse).
- Animats 5y ago
  Before freons, ammonia was used. Getting rid of ammonia refrigerants was considered a big step forward.
  - cartoonworld 5y ago
    In large commercial applications ammonia is still commonly used. Getting this crazy crap out of our homes and stuff is indeed a big step forward, though
    - kenmacd 5y ago
      idk. I'd be happy to run ammonia at home. When I looked years ago no one make small enough compressors though.
  - userbinator 5y ago
    Ammonia was never used in home refrigeration, except in absorption units (where it is still used today); the other toxic one that was widely used is SO2 (sulphur dioxide).
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  to be fair I was a bit sceptical about it when I first put it in. Its pure, rather than having the tell-tale smell. So I was a bit worried about silent leaks. However as you point out, some other refrigerants are pretty flammable, or otherwise generally a bit shit for your health. Also, in my unit, there is something like 66grams, although I suspect 10 grams of that was bled off to purge the lines of air. So if there was a slow leak, its unlikely to persist for long, or cause an explosion.
  - Gibbon1 5y ago
    Evaporated I think 66grams of propane is about 1cuft of gas. which doesn't seem to me to be that scary. A perfect air to fuel ratio would require mixing 16 cuft of air. And flammable range is narrow. Comparison, your kitchen is probably 1000 cuft. So I think you are right, slow leak isn't much of a hazard.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    A typical natural gas range probably releases more than 66g of unburnt hydrocarbons into your home.
    - userbinator 5y ago
      Natural gas is basically methane, which is around 16g/mol. 1mol of gas at STP is 22.4L, so 66g of methane is around 90L. A typical gas range has a flow rate of a few cubic meters per hour, or a few liters per minute. So just to get 66g of unburnt gas released, you'd need to leave a burner un-ignited for most of an hour, or considerably longer if it was burning.
    - KaiserPro 5y ago
      this is true, but it stinks, so you know its doing it. If there was no added smell, I could easily leak 66 grams into the house without knowing.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
    66 grams of propane are 35.1 liters. The lower explosive limit is 2.1%. So if the content leaks out slowly enough to mix with at least 2 cubic meters of air, it's going to be fine. However, if it leaks a bit more quickly, I can totally see it creating an explosive mixture in the space behind your fridge (or inside), to be ignited when the compressor/light switch trigger next. I can see why people aren't super happy with the prospect. A stoichiometric mixture forming inside your fridge and blowing up when you open it would definitely ruin your day.
- userbinator 5y ago
  People remember things like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire edit: please READ the article before you think of downvoting.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    ... which had absolutely nothing to do with refrigerants.
    - nzgrover 5y ago
      This one did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamahere_coolstore_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamahere_coolstore_fire
    - userbinator 5y ago
      I know the article is lengthy, but did you even try to search for refrigerant or freon in it? The air-conditioning also used flammable gas, because Freon was in short supply
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - ashtonkem 5y ago
        Which wasn't determined to be a source or contributor to the fire. > The Boston Fire Department investigated possible causes of ignition, the rapid spread of the fire and the catastrophic loss of life. Its report reached no conclusion as to the initial cause of ignition, but attributed the rapid, gaseous spread of the fire to a buildup of carbon monoxide gas due to oxygen-deprived combustion in the enclosed space above the false ceiling of the Melody Lounge. The gas exuded from enclosed spaces as its temperature rose and ignited rapidly as it mixed with oxygen above the entryway, up the stairway to the main floor and along ceilings. The fire accelerated as the stairway created a thermal draft, and the high-temperature gas fire ignited pyroxylin (leatherette) wall and ceiling covering in the foyer, which in turn exuded flammable gas. Yes, they used flammable gas in the AC, no that was not determined to be a source or contributing factor to the fire.
- s0rce 5y ago
  They sell them in appliance stores now, most people wouldn't even know, it's called R290. My fridge used it, sadly it died and was replaced with a conventional refrigerant model.
  - blibble 5y ago
    they seem concerned about labeling it as propane the one I bought had "R290 ECO-FRIENDLY REFRIGERANT" all over the box, with the chemical name nowhere to be found (of course I immediately wanted to know what R290 was and googled it...)
- mannykannot 5y ago
  Not to mention that gaseous hydrocarbons are widely used within homes, and not in hermetically-sealed devices either, as would be the case when used in a heat pump.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    What, you mean this methane spewing stove that causes really bad air quality, and is no more responsive than an induction stove and far less powerful than an induction stove? "Cooking with gas" is great marketing, but not so great in reality unless it's an outdoor wok.
    - xeromal 5y ago
      Can't say I have a good reason why, but I HATE cooking with an induction stove. Just not interested in learning how to manage heat. OOGA OOGA, I do understand fire.
kube-system 5y ago
r1234yf is already in wide use. It a little bit expensive, but it does not pose the global warming concerns of HFCs, doesn't deplete ozone like CFCs, and isn't as flammable as hydrocarbons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2C3%2C3%2C3-Tetrafluoropropene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2C3%2C3%2C3-Tetrafluoroprope...
- marcus0x62 5y ago
  R1234YF is ridiculously expensive compared to R134A, like 10 times the price. (For reference - I can buy a 10 pound cylinder of R1234-YF on eBay for $500. A 30 lb cylinder of R134A is $150 - $200.) It is also takes more expensive equipment and a significantly longer amount of time to charge a R1234-YF system. All around, it is a terrible refrigerant for an end-user.
  - userbinator 5y ago
    152a is another cheap alternative, and can even be bought without any license, at least in the US - it's the gas in "gas dusters". While 134a operates at a higher pressure than 12, 152a is a close match and works well as a replacement for old R12 systems.
tdeck 5y ago
Here's a guy who recharged an old fridge with propane: http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/els/refrig2-el.htm http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/els/refrig2-el.htm
- s0rce 5y ago
  My old fridge used propane from the manufacturer, sadly it only lasted a few years and repair was more expensive than another one. The new one uses a more conventional refrigerant.
- userbinator 5y ago
  Note the buildup of frost on the return tube all the way to the pump. That's a clear sign that you've massively overcharged it! I agree with his position about environmentalists, but I think he should at least learn a bit more about the science first. YouTube can help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLauVofEDzY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLauVofEDzY (All the refrigerant should boil off in the evaporator, and the return out of the cabinet should contain only room-temperature vapor. Frosting all the way back to the compressor wastes power cooling what doesn't need to be cooled, and can damage the compressor with liquid refrigerant.)
throw0101a 5y ago
> You can use propane for the refrigerant. Used in medical/scientific freezers that go down to -80C: * https://www.thermofisher.com/ca/en/home/life-science/lab-equipment/cold-storage/lab-freezers/ult-freezers/models.html https://www.thermofisher.com/ca/en/home/life-science/lab-equ... A combination of R290 (propane) and R170 (ethane) + R290 mix.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  A mix of propane and iso-butane can be used (perhaps illegally, depending on where you are) as a replacement for old R12 refrigerant.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    Confusingly labelled as R12a and sold under brands such as RedTek. This is the only type of refrigerant available to unlicensed consumers in Canada, and it is widely available in stores everywhere. R134a is not sold in stores here. The US is the opposite—R134a is available to DIYers everywhere, but R12a is banned because it is flammable.
jeroenhd 5y ago
Most portable air conditioners I've seen use "R290" (propane) as a coolant, both from expensive brands and budget brands. I'd say propane is very popular in that industry, it's not just an option. Of course, there are some risks to using propane (which is why these devices come with warnings not to store them in small rooms) but I suspect many people will already be using propane cooling somewhere without even knowing.
fettucini 5y ago
KaiserPro says >"You can use propane for the refrigerant. The half-life in the atmosphere is pretty short. Its cheap, non toxic and fairly well understood."< Also pretty fucking explosive. Propane, when released, flows to the ground and seeks the lowest level. Unlike natural gas (which rises), propane settles in valleys, nooks and crannies and waits for a spark. www.bing.com/search?q=propane+refrigerant+explosion Propane has been tested and, in the past, rejected as a refrigerant for these reasons. Once again, the fools of industry make another attempt to roll back nature to save a few dollars. We won't see the end of this until a few Whole Foods Stores and convenience stores explode with large number of deaths, whereupon the U.S. gummint will step in and say that they didn't mean it all along, that propane should never be used as a refrigerant and that industry is to blame. I'm not stepping into another Whole Foods Store until well after this entire R-290 refrigeration scheme blows over (or better said, blows up): https://bpnews.com/feature-articles/propane-refrigerant-whats-not-love https://bpnews.com/feature-articles/propane-refrigerant-what... Is R-290 (refrigerant composed of CO2 and propane) flammable/explosive?: https://www.bing.com/search?q=r-290+flammable https://www.bing.com/search?q=r-290+flammable

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

Rational people turn into tantrum throwing toddlers and absolutely go crazy if you suggest using a flammable hydrocarbon as a refrigerant (never-mind that many refrigerants are already flammable hydrocarbons or nasty in indoor spaces to the point where propane isn't worse).

Animats 5y ago
Before freons, ammonia was used. Getting rid of ammonia refrigerants was considered a big step forward.
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  In large commercial applications ammonia is still commonly used. Getting this crazy crap out of our homes and stuff is indeed a big step forward, though
  - kenmacd 5y ago
    idk. I'd be happy to run ammonia at home. When I looked years ago no one make small enough compressors though.
- userbinator 5y ago
  Ammonia was never used in home refrigeration, except in absorption units (where it is still used today); the other toxic one that was widely used is SO2 (sulphur dioxide).
KaiserPro 5y ago
to be fair I was a bit sceptical about it when I first put it in. Its pure, rather than having the tell-tale smell. So I was a bit worried about silent leaks. However as you point out, some other refrigerants are pretty flammable, or otherwise generally a bit shit for your health. Also, in my unit, there is something like 66grams, although I suspect 10 grams of that was bled off to purge the lines of air. So if there was a slow leak, its unlikely to persist for long, or cause an explosion.
- Gibbon1 5y ago
  Evaporated I think 66grams of propane is about 1cuft of gas. which doesn't seem to me to be that scary. A perfect air to fuel ratio would require mixing 16 cuft of air. And flammable range is narrow. Comparison, your kitchen is probably 1000 cuft. So I think you are right, slow leak isn't much of a hazard.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  A typical natural gas range probably releases more than 66g of unburnt hydrocarbons into your home.
  - userbinator 5y ago
    Natural gas is basically methane, which is around 16g/mol. 1mol of gas at STP is 22.4L, so 66g of methane is around 90L. A typical gas range has a flow rate of a few cubic meters per hour, or a few liters per minute. So just to get 66g of unburnt gas released, you'd need to leave a burner un-ignited for most of an hour, or considerably longer if it was burning.
  - KaiserPro 5y ago
    this is true, but it stinks, so you know its doing it. If there was no added smell, I could easily leak 66 grams into the house without knowing.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  66 grams of propane are 35.1 liters. The lower explosive limit is 2.1%. So if the content leaks out slowly enough to mix with at least 2 cubic meters of air, it's going to be fine. However, if it leaks a bit more quickly, I can totally see it creating an explosive mixture in the space behind your fridge (or inside), to be ignited when the compressor/light switch trigger next. I can see why people aren't super happy with the prospect. A stoichiometric mixture forming inside your fridge and blowing up when you open it would definitely ruin your day.
userbinator 5y ago
People remember things like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire edit: please READ the article before you think of downvoting.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  ... which had absolutely nothing to do with refrigerants.
  - nzgrover 5y ago
    This one did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamahere_coolstore_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamahere_coolstore_fire
  - userbinator 5y ago
    I know the article is lengthy, but did you even try to search for refrigerant or freon in it? The air-conditioning also used flammable gas, because Freon was in short supply
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      Which wasn't determined to be a source or contributor to the fire. > The Boston Fire Department investigated possible causes of ignition, the rapid spread of the fire and the catastrophic loss of life. Its report reached no conclusion as to the initial cause of ignition, but attributed the rapid, gaseous spread of the fire to a buildup of carbon monoxide gas due to oxygen-deprived combustion in the enclosed space above the false ceiling of the Melody Lounge. The gas exuded from enclosed spaces as its temperature rose and ignited rapidly as it mixed with oxygen above the entryway, up the stairway to the main floor and along ceilings. The fire accelerated as the stairway created a thermal draft, and the high-temperature gas fire ignited pyroxylin (leatherette) wall and ceiling covering in the foyer, which in turn exuded flammable gas. Yes, they used flammable gas in the AC, no that was not determined to be a source or contributing factor to the fire.
s0rce 5y ago
They sell them in appliance stores now, most people wouldn't even know, it's called R290. My fridge used it, sadly it died and was replaced with a conventional refrigerant model.
- blibble 5y ago
  they seem concerned about labeling it as propane the one I bought had "R290 ECO-FRIENDLY REFRIGERANT" all over the box, with the chemical name nowhere to be found (of course I immediately wanted to know what R290 was and googled it...)
mannykannot 5y ago
Not to mention that gaseous hydrocarbons are widely used within homes, and not in hermetically-sealed devices either, as would be the case when used in a heat pump.
- epistasis 5y ago
  What, you mean this methane spewing stove that causes really bad air quality, and is no more responsive than an induction stove and far less powerful than an induction stove? "Cooking with gas" is great marketing, but not so great in reality unless it's an outdoor wok.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    Can't say I have a good reason why, but I HATE cooking with an induction stove. Just not interested in learning how to manage heat. OOGA OOGA, I do understand fire.

kube-system 5y ago

r1234yf is already in wide use. It a little bit expensive, but it does not pose the global warming concerns of HFCs, doesn't deplete ozone like CFCs, and isn't as flammable as hydrocarbons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2C3%2C3%2C3-Tetrafluoropropene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2C3%2C3%2C3-Tetrafluoroprope...

marcus0x62 5y ago
R1234YF is ridiculously expensive compared to R134A, like 10 times the price. (For reference - I can buy a 10 pound cylinder of R1234-YF on eBay for $500. A 30 lb cylinder of R134A is $150 - $200.) It is also takes more expensive equipment and a significantly longer amount of time to charge a R1234-YF system. All around, it is a terrible refrigerant for an end-user.
- userbinator 5y ago
  152a is another cheap alternative, and can even be bought without any license, at least in the US - it's the gas in "gas dusters". While 134a operates at a higher pressure than 12, 152a is a close match and works well as a replacement for old R12 systems.

tdeck 5y ago

Here's a guy who recharged an old fridge with propane: http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/els/refrig2-el.htm http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/els/refrig2-el.htm

s0rce 5y ago
My old fridge used propane from the manufacturer, sadly it only lasted a few years and repair was more expensive than another one. The new one uses a more conventional refrigerant.
userbinator 5y ago
Note the buildup of frost on the return tube all the way to the pump. That's a clear sign that you've massively overcharged it! I agree with his position about environmentalists, but I think he should at least learn a bit more about the science first. YouTube can help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLauVofEDzY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLauVofEDzY (All the refrigerant should boil off in the evaporator, and the return out of the cabinet should contain only room-temperature vapor. Frosting all the way back to the compressor wastes power cooling what doesn't need to be cooled, and can damage the compressor with liquid refrigerant.)

throw0101a 5y ago

> You can use propane for the refrigerant. Used in medical/scientific freezers that go down to -80C: * https://www.thermofisher.com/ca/en/home/life-science/lab-equipment/cold-storage/lab-freezers/ult-freezers/models.html https://www.thermofisher.com/ca/en/home/life-science/lab-equ... A combination of R290 (propane) and R170 (ethane) + R290 mix.

throwawayboise 5y ago
A mix of propane and iso-butane can be used (perhaps illegally, depending on where you are) as a replacement for old R12 refrigerant.
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  Confusingly labelled as R12a and sold under brands such as RedTek. This is the only type of refrigerant available to unlicensed consumers in Canada, and it is widely available in stores everywhere. R134a is not sold in stores here. The US is the opposite—R134a is available to DIYers everywhere, but R12a is banned because it is flammable.

jeroenhd 5y ago

Most portable air conditioners I've seen use "R290" (propane) as a coolant, both from expensive brands and budget brands. I'd say propane is very popular in that industry, it's not just an option. Of course, there are some risks to using propane (which is why these devices come with warnings not to store them in small rooms) but I suspect many people will already be using propane cooling somewhere without even knowing.

fettucini 5y ago

KaiserPro says >"You can use propane for the refrigerant. The half-life in the atmosphere is pretty short. Its cheap, non toxic and fairly well understood."< Also pretty fucking explosive. Propane, when released, flows to the ground and seeks the lowest level. Unlike natural gas (which rises), propane settles in valleys, nooks and crannies and waits for a spark. www.bing.com/search?q=propane+refrigerant+explosion Propane has been tested and, in the past, rejected as a refrigerant for these reasons. Once again, the fools of industry make another attempt to roll back nature to save a few dollars. We won't see the end of this until a few Whole Foods Stores and convenience stores explode with large number of deaths, whereupon the U.S. gummint will step in and say that they didn't mean it all along, that propane should never be used as a refrigerant and that industry is to blame. I'm not stepping into another Whole Foods Store until well after this entire R-290 refrigeration scheme blows over (or better said, blows up): https://bpnews.com/feature-articles/propane-refrigerant-whats-not-love https://bpnews.com/feature-articles/propane-refrigerant-what... Is R-290 (refrigerant composed of CO2 and propane) flammable/explosive?: https://www.bing.com/search?q=r-290+flammable https://www.bing.com/search?q=r-290+flammable