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If you're ever worried that a feature will be too complex to implement, take a look at the ridiculous number of things Dwarf Fortress keeps track of and simulat

If you're ever worried that a feature will be too complex to implement, take a look at the ridiculous number of things Dwarf Fortress keeps track of and simulates some time. The article briefly touches on it, but like any look at Dwarf Fortress, it bared dips its toes in the water. Just a quick list off the top of my head... In world gen, it simulates geology and erosion, climate/biomes, growing civilizations, politics, war, trade, attacks by various "megabeast" creatures and their battles (in which injuries down to losing a tooth will be kept track of), migration and refuges as a result of war, (I believe) deforestation as a result of logging, and probably a lot more that I'm forgetting. That's just in world generation, before you're actually playing it. Remember, what one person can program when they're truly dedicated is a pretty incredible feat.

jonnathanson 15y ago
Dwarf Fortress has a level of micro-complexity that I wish Civilization had. I think there is a niche -- albeit probably a very small one -- for more super-hardcore strategy games in a variety of settings and genres. Folks like me would love to play a game like Civilization and have incredibly rich, complicated diplomacy and trade and other issues that simulate, as closely as possible, real-world geopolitical issues. (In some ways, for instance, I'd love to be able to fight a cold war with an AI opponent, rather than an actual war).
- martey 15y ago
  While I have never played it, I have heard good things about the complexity of the Europa Universalis series. IF author Adam Cadre wrote a mini-review of it a few years ago: http://adamcadre.ac/calendar/10898.html http://adamcadre.ac/calendar/10898.html
  - jonnathanson 15y ago
    Have also heard good things. Given that I keep hearing them, I think it's time I got off my butt and checked it out!
- GHFigs 15y ago
  I can vouch for Crusader Kings, Hearts of Iron, and Victora (all from the same developer as Europa Universalis: Paradox Interactive) as having the kind of beyond-Civ levels of depth and complexity you're looking for. Each is tailored to it's own slice of history in a way that Civ by nature can't be.
astrofinch 15y ago
I wonder what techniques Tarn uses to manage that complexity. Does he write extremely clean code? Use test-driven development?
- jokermatt999 15y ago
  From what I've heard, not really. He tests a lot (he posts about it on the devlog), but I've heard he doesn't use version control even.
- ShardPhoenix 15y ago
  Supposedly his code is pretty rough. That would explain why development is slow and the game pretty bug-ridden.
scott_s 15y ago
Remember, what one person can program when they're truly dedicated is a pretty incredible feat. And I wonder if the level of dedication he has demonstrated requires Asperger's. He has all of the classic symptoms, down to the the involuntary rocking. I've worked hard, and I've sacrificed a lot of my time to my work. But I'm not willing to sacrifice as much of my time as he has. And it's quite likely his life's work will be both larger in total and have more impact than mine. That all leads me to my question, which is if his level of dedication requires Asperger's. Before people bring up people like Einstein and Feynman, consider that they had personal lives. They pursued personal lives.
- forensic 15y ago
  The only thing he's missing out on is romance and sex. His occupation and lifestyle appears to satisfy all the other typical human needs. Taking a DSM perspective is not the most enlightening perspective. The sex thing is a big problem. In the past, great artists were able to find companionship and sex despite poverty and oddness. Why is it that hackers have such difficulty? If Richard Stallman's medium was anything other than computers he would have to fight off the women, but somehow hackers are girl-repellent despite being devoted artistic geniuses? I don't think his devotion will last long or stay fresh unless he starts fulfilling sex and romance needs. Exposure like this NYT article should help, and also a rising income would help a lot. Then he still has to make time for women and he might find the intimacy too threatening. Anyway for the sake of Dwarf Fortress and his art ambitions I hope he figures out a way to fulfill sex needs. Other than that I don't see anything unsustainable or obviously unhealthy about his lifestyle.
  - marvin 15y ago
    You've got it backwards. Women aren't scared of hackers, hackers are scared of women. This is a gross generalization, but it fits for the examples you mention. Yes, some nerds are completely unattractive and girl-repellent. But it doesn't take that much effort to become attractive, and a lot of hardcore computer guys are attracted to computers precisely because working with computers allows you to lead a solitary lifestyle with minimal social interaction. I'm certain that there were people before that were as scared of social interaction as the biggest hardcore nerds today, but they weren't working in a technical profession. Working with technical things 50 years ago required interacting with other humans much more than computers do, because the machinery in question was physical and more distributed.
cageface 15y ago
I wonder how he manages to balance all these elements. Even in much simpler games balancing the strengths and weaknesses of all the actors can be very difficult. With so many interlocking factors it seems it would next to impossible to avoid inadvertently making one tactic or actor too powerful. For example, in the early Civ games the optimal strategy was to just build up to chariot technology and then go 100% on the offensive.
- megablast 15y ago
  The early civ games were susceptible to the mongol hord method, which the designer never considered.
- horser4dish 15y ago
  There are a lot of releases, and fairly often; I've had versions go "out of date" on me within a week of its release. The forums are very active, and when they say something is unbalanced or broken, it tends to get fixed. Some things are not serious game-breakers, even if they are mildly broken (see: elephants in the versions that Boatmurdered used), and those tend to stay in until it becomes a pain to deal with. Basically, it's just trial-and-error. But it makes for an interesting game, because you're never quite sure if everything will work as expected.

jonnathanson 15y ago

Dwarf Fortress has a level of micro-complexity that I wish Civilization had. I think there is a niche -- albeit probably a very small one -- for more super-hardcore strategy games in a variety of settings and genres. Folks like me would love to play a game like Civilization and have incredibly rich, complicated diplomacy and trade and other issues that simulate, as closely as possible, real-world geopolitical issues. (In some ways, for instance, I'd love to be able to fight a cold war with an AI opponent, rather than an actual war).

martey 15y ago
While I have never played it, I have heard good things about the complexity of the Europa Universalis series. IF author Adam Cadre wrote a mini-review of it a few years ago: http://adamcadre.ac/calendar/10898.html http://adamcadre.ac/calendar/10898.html
- jonnathanson 15y ago
  Have also heard good things. Given that I keep hearing them, I think it's time I got off my butt and checked it out!
GHFigs 15y ago
I can vouch for Crusader Kings, Hearts of Iron, and Victora (all from the same developer as Europa Universalis: Paradox Interactive) as having the kind of beyond-Civ levels of depth and complexity you're looking for. Each is tailored to it's own slice of history in a way that Civ by nature can't be.

astrofinch 15y ago

I wonder what techniques Tarn uses to manage that complexity. Does he write extremely clean code? Use test-driven development?

jokermatt999 15y ago
From what I've heard, not really. He tests a lot (he posts about it on the devlog), but I've heard he doesn't use version control even.
ShardPhoenix 15y ago
Supposedly his code is pretty rough. That would explain why development is slow and the game pretty bug-ridden.

scott_s 15y ago

Remember, what one person can program when they're truly dedicated is a pretty incredible feat. And I wonder if the level of dedication he has demonstrated requires Asperger's. He has all of the classic symptoms, down to the the involuntary rocking. I've worked hard, and I've sacrificed a lot of my time to my work. But I'm not willing to sacrifice as much of my time as he has. And it's quite likely his life's work will be both larger in total and have more impact than mine. That all leads me to my question, which is if his level of dedication requires Asperger's. Before people bring up people like Einstein and Feynman, consider that they had personal lives. They pursued personal lives.

forensic 15y ago
The only thing he's missing out on is romance and sex. His occupation and lifestyle appears to satisfy all the other typical human needs. Taking a DSM perspective is not the most enlightening perspective. The sex thing is a big problem. In the past, great artists were able to find companionship and sex despite poverty and oddness. Why is it that hackers have such difficulty? If Richard Stallman's medium was anything other than computers he would have to fight off the women, but somehow hackers are girl-repellent despite being devoted artistic geniuses? I don't think his devotion will last long or stay fresh unless he starts fulfilling sex and romance needs. Exposure like this NYT article should help, and also a rising income would help a lot. Then he still has to make time for women and he might find the intimacy too threatening. Anyway for the sake of Dwarf Fortress and his art ambitions I hope he figures out a way to fulfill sex needs. Other than that I don't see anything unsustainable or obviously unhealthy about his lifestyle.
- marvin 15y ago
  You've got it backwards. Women aren't scared of hackers, hackers are scared of women. This is a gross generalization, but it fits for the examples you mention. Yes, some nerds are completely unattractive and girl-repellent. But it doesn't take that much effort to become attractive, and a lot of hardcore computer guys are attracted to computers precisely because working with computers allows you to lead a solitary lifestyle with minimal social interaction. I'm certain that there were people before that were as scared of social interaction as the biggest hardcore nerds today, but they weren't working in a technical profession. Working with technical things 50 years ago required interacting with other humans much more than computers do, because the machinery in question was physical and more distributed.

cageface 15y ago

I wonder how he manages to balance all these elements. Even in much simpler games balancing the strengths and weaknesses of all the actors can be very difficult. With so many interlocking factors it seems it would next to impossible to avoid inadvertently making one tactic or actor too powerful. For example, in the early Civ games the optimal strategy was to just build up to chariot technology and then go 100% on the offensive.

megablast 15y ago
The early civ games were susceptible to the mongol hord method, which the designer never considered.
horser4dish 15y ago
There are a lot of releases, and fairly often; I've had versions go "out of date" on me within a week of its release. The forums are very active, and when they say something is unbalanced or broken, it tends to get fixed. Some things are not serious game-breakers, even if they are mildly broken (see: elephants in the versions that Boatmurdered used), and those tend to stay in until it becomes a pain to deal with. Basically, it's just trial-and-error. But it makes for an interesting game, because you're never quite sure if everything will work as expected.