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I like the phrase "art imitating art", but it's broader than that. For example people with no interest in antique, Greece or Sparta are fans of Spartans. In rea

by b0rsuk 5y ago

I like the phrase "art imitating art", but it's broader than that. For example people with no interest in antique, Greece or Sparta are fans of Spartans. In reality, Sparta was a North Korea of the antique world, AND it had profoundly average combat performance. No matter how you slice it, they were completely average as far as won battles go! https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-vi-spartan-battle/ https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p... If you filter out naval battles, it doesn't change anything. If you remove battles where they fought in a coalition with other Greeks, their win rate even drops slightly. There is some evidence they may have had a slight advantage in leadership, because they had more leaders and their units were a bit smaller so they could perhaps operate more independently and seize opportunities on a field of battle (a strategy perfected by Romans). But overall, their strategy was bad even by antique standards - check out the Peloponesian War (with Athens). Spartans just had a good PR. Dead butterflies is a meme (in the old meaning of viral idea). Spartan military excellence is a meme too.

dalbasal 5y ago
I'd say the spartan meme is also an example of art imitating art. Other greeks, and later Romans started this meme. They admired Sparta's dedication to conservative fanaticism, romanticized it and told stories about them. We still tell the stories, based on older stories based on older stories. Meanwhile, we have very little direct access to "reality." In fact, unmediated reality is pretty elusive.. when you stop to think about it. Win rate statistics and other such "objective" views into reality are a pretty sparse source of information.
kleton 5y ago
Some criticism of Acoup's analysis of their combat performance. All of the defeats listed are either not infantry battles or ones where Sparta was heavily outnumbered. It's hardly surprising that they would lose battles over 500 v 1000, and no contemporary commentators claimed that man for man they were that much better than their peer poleis. If you did a "wins above replacement" analysis for pitched infantry battles, they would come out ahead, at least until the Battle of Tegyra (375), when Boeotians had figured out an effective infantry doctrine after years fighting Sparta. Plutarch on the Theban victory over Sparta at Leuctra (371). >For in all the great wars there had ever been against Greeks or barbarians, the Spartans were never before beaten by a smaller company than their own; nor, indeed, in a set battle, when their number was equal. Hence their courage was thought irresistible, and their high repute before the battle made a conquest already of enemies, who thought themselves no match for the men of Sparta even on equal terms. That battle wiped out the Spartiate class for a generation, killing 400 out of 700. This opened the way for Thebes to liberate Messenia in 370, which was the majority of the Lakonian helots, and it was all downhill for Sparta after that.
- karpierz 5y ago
  I think if you're going to do an analysis of military strength, you have to do it in context of the political system that produces it. If your society results in supersoldiers, but also causes you to regularly fail at diplomacy and end up outnumbered in wars which you end up losing, I wouldn't say that your military record is successful.
  - kleton 5y ago
    They won the Peloponessian war (plenty of diplomacy and coalition building) and remained dominant until 371, which was the first war they lost. It was a pretty respectable record.
    - dmix 5y ago
      I’m not seeing much connection to North Korea here. They have awful diplomacy, no real coalitions (besides China which is more of a complete one sided economic dependency and a constant source of trouble), a poor military track record besides perfecting sabre rattling and a single small US ship from the 1950s as their most prominent war prize, no one is trying to imitate them, they rely heavily on raw numbers over ability in a defensive posture built up over generations, etc. I’m trying to think of where the analogies begin…
      - b0rsuk 5y ago
        Brutal dictatorship. 90% of population living in poverty (The Helots in Sparta were hunted for sport by Spartiates, particularly as a coming of age ritual).
        birdyrooster 5y ago
        Did they kidnap foreigners to do research or translation?
        danielheath 5y ago
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
One thing is clear: Spartan PR department was undefeatable.
- b0rsuk 5y ago
  "Spartan" should be a popular name for marketing and PR agencies, not for military :-).
wnevets 5y ago
>No matter how you slice it, they were completely average as far as won battles go! and they absolutely surrendered!
BurningFrog 5y ago
I didn't read the article, but measuring military skill by how many battles you win is very tricky business. To have a battle, you need two armies. If army A is clearly stronger than army B, B will typically admit defeat without going through the unpleasant process of being slaughtered to the last man. At least if they have reasonable expectations of a life after surrender. So battles that are actually fought are normally pretty even. That doesn't mean every fighting force is equal to every other. The militarily stronger side gets their way by having a credible threat of settling things by force if needed.
rodgerd 5y ago
On art-imitating-art, I read an interesting interview in The Comics Journal in the late 90s, wherein the interviewee bemoaned how poor the state of comics art hat become; the norm in the 30s, 40s, and 50s had been artists who had trained as illustrators or in fine arts, and even when they portrayed horror or superheroes, their work was grounded in a knowledge of how bodies worked. Over time, though, more and more of the artists had learned by copying the golden and silver age work. And then copying those copies. The end point of which was Rob Liefeld being unable to draw feet and his other atrocities of posture, proportion, or indeed a sense of where a human's organs might reside.
gverrilla 5y ago
> Sparta was a North Korea of the antique world what do you mean by that? this has been debunked [0]. 0: Werner Jaeger, Paideia

by b0rsuk 5y ago

dalbasal 5y ago

I'd say the spartan meme is also an example of art imitating art. Other greeks, and later Romans started this meme. They admired Sparta's dedication to conservative fanaticism, romanticized it and told stories about them. We still tell the stories, based on older stories based on older stories. Meanwhile, we have very little direct access to "reality." In fact, unmediated reality is pretty elusive.. when you stop to think about it. Win rate statistics and other such "objective" views into reality are a pretty sparse source of information.

kleton 5y ago

Some criticism of Acoup's analysis of their combat performance. All of the defeats listed are either not infantry battles or ones where Sparta was heavily outnumbered. It's hardly surprising that they would lose battles over 500 v 1000, and no contemporary commentators claimed that man for man they were that much better than their peer poleis. If you did a "wins above replacement" analysis for pitched infantry battles, they would come out ahead, at least until the Battle of Tegyra (375), when Boeotians had figured out an effective infantry doctrine after years fighting Sparta. Plutarch on the Theban victory over Sparta at Leuctra (371). >For in all the great wars there had ever been against Greeks or barbarians, the Spartans were never before beaten by a smaller company than their own; nor, indeed, in a set battle, when their number was equal. Hence their courage was thought irresistible, and their high repute before the battle made a conquest already of enemies, who thought themselves no match for the men of Sparta even on equal terms. That battle wiped out the Spartiate class for a generation, killing 400 out of 700. This opened the way for Thebes to liberate Messenia in 370, which was the majority of the Lakonian helots, and it was all downhill for Sparta after that.

karpierz 5y ago
I think if you're going to do an analysis of military strength, you have to do it in context of the political system that produces it. If your society results in supersoldiers, but also causes you to regularly fail at diplomacy and end up outnumbered in wars which you end up losing, I wouldn't say that your military record is successful.
- kleton 5y ago
  They won the Peloponessian war (plenty of diplomacy and coalition building) and remained dominant until 371, which was the first war they lost. It was a pretty respectable record.
  - dmix 5y ago
    I’m not seeing much connection to North Korea here. They have awful diplomacy, no real coalitions (besides China which is more of a complete one sided economic dependency and a constant source of trouble), a poor military track record besides perfecting sabre rattling and a single small US ship from the 1950s as their most prominent war prize, no one is trying to imitate them, they rely heavily on raw numbers over ability in a defensive posture built up over generations, etc. I’m trying to think of where the analogies begin…
    - b0rsuk 5y ago
      Brutal dictatorship. 90% of population living in poverty (The Helots in Sparta were hunted for sport by Spartiates, particularly as a coming of age ritual).
      - birdyrooster 5y ago
        Did they kidnap foreigners to do research or translation?
        danielheath 5y ago

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

One thing is clear: Spartan PR department was undefeatable.

b0rsuk 5y ago
"Spartan" should be a popular name for marketing and PR agencies, not for military :-).

wnevets 5y ago

>No matter how you slice it, they were completely average as far as won battles go! and they absolutely surrendered!

BurningFrog 5y ago

I didn't read the article, but measuring military skill by how many battles you win is very tricky business. To have a battle, you need two armies. If army A is clearly stronger than army B, B will typically admit defeat without going through the unpleasant process of being slaughtered to the last man. At least if they have reasonable expectations of a life after surrender. So battles that are actually fought are normally pretty even. That doesn't mean every fighting force is equal to every other. The militarily stronger side gets their way by having a credible threat of settling things by force if needed.

rodgerd 5y ago

On art-imitating-art, I read an interesting interview in The Comics Journal in the late 90s, wherein the interviewee bemoaned how poor the state of comics art hat become; the norm in the 30s, 40s, and 50s had been artists who had trained as illustrators or in fine arts, and even when they portrayed horror or superheroes, their work was grounded in a knowledge of how bodies worked. Over time, though, more and more of the artists had learned by copying the golden and silver age work. And then copying those copies. The end point of which was Rob Liefeld being unable to draw feet and his other atrocities of posture, proportion, or indeed a sense of where a human's organs might reside.

gverrilla 5y ago

> Sparta was a North Korea of the antique world what do you mean by that? this has been debunked [0]. 0: Werner Jaeger, Paideia