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This means you were lucky and got to work in those isolated environments where you never had to migrate such an ancient system without compromise and 100.00% id

This means you were lucky and got to work in those isolated environments where you never had to migrate such an ancient system without compromise and 100.00% identical operation or dealing with "we must have/support x, no matter what, cost is off the table". I've been through that countless times. Migrating ancient systems, writing drivers for hardware with close to 0 documentation or specification, "ads absolutely immune to ad blockers in our apps", just 3 personal examples where any value for a story point is an arbitrary number and a wild guess at best and where the only thing I got from agile was countless sleepless nights, no weekends or holidays and still barely making it in time. Not because I was locked to a desk but because of my personal working ethic.

TameAntelope 5y ago
Even when a company is facing an existential crisis, your estimation is important to help decide if they need to provide additional resources or even replace you if you're not able to do the job (among many other things). They're not going to throw money at you forever, and demanding blind trust is completely unreasonable, especially so in an existential crisis. There is simply never a situation where not having a sense of when work will be completed is acceptable. You cannot concoct a scenario where that's okay, and the fact that you're trying to kind of reinforces my point about work vs. value. There is no "infinite value" scenario, that doesn't exist.
- axegon_ 5y ago
  Pretty sure I just gave you 3 examples where no one cared how much X would cost. "We want it by Q3, figure it out". Where is the documentation? "¯\_(ツ)_/¯". Who built the old system? "Last one died in 98". Who knows how X works? "¯\_(ツ)_/¯, you're smart, you'll figure it out, just remember, Q3". As I said you're either lucky or speaking from the so called "top management" perspective. Things look very different for average Joe.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    Yeah, average Joe in your examples here isn’t being given the whole picture. I’m not sure what your point actually is; are you saying that since Story Points don’t help you specifically, they’re a waste? Don’t you get how myopic that is?
    - axegon_ 5y ago
      My point is that they are often as relevant to reality as the flying spaghetti monster to spaghetti. Read my previous comments dump whatever you have in memory in an s3 bucket? Story point 0-give me 10 minutes. Then why did it take a week and a half? Cause someone from another team across the world has to grant permissions which was 3 days of discussions, then the VPN was messed up, which took another 2 teams on the other end of the planet 4 days to fix, 10 minutes to code it and 10 minutes for the cicd pipeline to deploy it. 0 story points, right. That's my entire problem with evangelistic crap like (fr)agile, story points, sprints, epics and so on: they do not reflect reality in any shape or form.
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        Well yeah, agile works best when everyone involved is in the room.

TameAntelope 5y ago

Even when a company is facing an existential crisis, your estimation is important to help decide if they need to provide additional resources or even replace you if you're not able to do the job (among many other things). They're not going to throw money at you forever, and demanding blind trust is completely unreasonable, especially so in an existential crisis. There is simply never a situation where not having a sense of when work will be completed is acceptable. You cannot concoct a scenario where that's okay, and the fact that you're trying to kind of reinforces my point about work vs. value. There is no "infinite value" scenario, that doesn't exist.

axegon_ 5y ago
Pretty sure I just gave you 3 examples where no one cared how much X would cost. "We want it by Q3, figure it out". Where is the documentation? "¯\_(ツ)_/¯". Who built the old system? "Last one died in 98". Who knows how X works? "¯\_(ツ)_/¯, you're smart, you'll figure it out, just remember, Q3". As I said you're either lucky or speaking from the so called "top management" perspective. Things look very different for average Joe.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Yeah, average Joe in your examples here isn’t being given the whole picture. I’m not sure what your point actually is; are you saying that since Story Points don’t help you specifically, they’re a waste? Don’t you get how myopic that is?
  - axegon_ 5y ago
    My point is that they are often as relevant to reality as the flying spaghetti monster to spaghetti. Read my previous comments dump whatever you have in memory in an s3 bucket? Story point 0-give me 10 minutes. Then why did it take a week and a half? Cause someone from another team across the world has to grant permissions which was 3 days of discussions, then the VPN was messed up, which took another 2 teams on the other end of the planet 4 days to fix, 10 minutes to code it and 10 minutes for the cicd pipeline to deploy it. 0 story points, right. That's my entire problem with evangelistic crap like (fr)agile, story points, sprints, epics and so on: they do not reflect reality in any shape or form.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Well yeah, agile works best when everyone involved is in the room.