4 ms·

That is a problem. You shouldn't trust apps. You should haven't to trust apps any more than you should have to trust webpages. Apps can be just as evil as a web

by wruza 5y ago

That is a problem. You shouldn't trust apps. You should haven't to trust apps any more than you should have to trust webpages. Apps can be just as evil as a webpage. In fact apps can be more evil because at the moment they aren't sandboxed on Mac or Windows or Linux so they can do far more damage than a webpage. Please no. Leave it to the phones, I don’t want to answer stupid “would you like this app to …” questions to see an image gallery, open a text file or click on an url shortcut. I have trust in my apps, in the same way I trust my guests to not dig in my closets, and it’s not really a huge deal if they do. I don’t want to turn my house into a set of prison cells and guarded corridors, even if I’d have all the keys. If I don’t like you or heard something compromising, you’re simply not welcome, enforced by the only lock on my door.

fsflover 5y ago
You can sandbox apps without stupid UI. Have a look at Qubes OS.
- wruza 5y ago
  It is technical but I am technical myself. When I have to install some shady app or some fs monstrosity like msvs/mssql, I just clone a generic vbox instance and delete it afterwards. There is no need for a special OS to do that (which may have native drivers issues, will it even run gta?) If my grandma was into computers, I can’t see how qubes os could help her. Downloading and running ransomware in the “finance” isolation or visiting her bank in “recipes” isolation is still possible, because she isn’t techincal, and I’m not her personal system administrator who sets up firewalls and email filtering or provides 24/7 support. I’m not arguing for everyone (obviously regular people needed phone/tablet security), I’m just pointing out that it always comes with strings attached – either hardware or freedom related, which is my personal concern.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > which may have native drivers issues, will it even run gta? Qubes uses Linux drivers. However, games will not work unless you do GPU passthrough (with second GPU). > When I have to install some shady app Good UI allows you to move the line of what "shady" means. You can significantly decrease your trust in apps with a reasonable effort. For instance, I run Zoom in a VM, it feels great. > If my grandma was into computers, I can’t see how qubes os could help her. You indeed have to spend some effort to use Qubes OS. However if your grandma cares about security/privacy, she could perhaps use basic Qubes functionality like having two VMs, one for everything trusted and the other for everything untrusted. VMs on Qubes look like normal windows, so it's not that complicated to work with. You have to separate your workflows though. > I just clone a generic vbox instance and delete it afterwards Hardware VT-d virtualization is much more secure. Also the GUI is more user-friendly.
    - Const-me 5y ago
      > Hardware VT-d virtualization is much more secure. Also the GUI is more user-friendly. What's the security difference? AFAIK all modern VM hosts use everything available, Intel VT-x, EPT, VT-d, VT-c, AMD RVI, whatever. Virtual Box ain't an exception.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        1. It prevents DMA attacks allowing PCI devices to read, write the memory. https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#why-is-vt-dadm-viamd-iommu-important https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#why-is-vt-dadm-viamd-iommu-imp... 2. Meltdown, the most reliable attack of the three discussed, cannot be exploited _from_ a fully-virtualized (i.e. HVM or PVH) VM. https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-secpack/blob/master/QSBs/qsb-037-2018.txt https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-secpack/blob/master/QSBs/qs... 3. It serves as an additional virtualization layer on top of Xen supervisor, decreasing the attack surface and making some serious bugs not harmful. https://www.qubes-os.org/news/2017/07/31/qubes-40-rc1/#fully-virtualized-vms-for-better-isolation https://www.qubes-os.org/news/2017/07/31/qubes-40-rc1/#fully...

by wruza 5y ago

fsflover 5y ago

You can sandbox apps without stupid UI. Have a look at Qubes OS.

wruza 5y ago
It is technical but I am technical myself. When I have to install some shady app or some fs monstrosity like msvs/mssql, I just clone a generic vbox instance and delete it afterwards. There is no need for a special OS to do that (which may have native drivers issues, will it even run gta?) If my grandma was into computers, I can’t see how qubes os could help her. Downloading and running ransomware in the “finance” isolation or visiting her bank in “recipes” isolation is still possible, because she isn’t techincal, and I’m not her personal system administrator who sets up firewalls and email filtering or provides 24/7 support. I’m not arguing for everyone (obviously regular people needed phone/tablet security), I’m just pointing out that it always comes with strings attached – either hardware or freedom related, which is my personal concern.
- fsflover 5y ago
  > which may have native drivers issues, will it even run gta? Qubes uses Linux drivers. However, games will not work unless you do GPU passthrough (with second GPU). > When I have to install some shady app Good UI allows you to move the line of what "shady" means. You can significantly decrease your trust in apps with a reasonable effort. For instance, I run Zoom in a VM, it feels great. > If my grandma was into computers, I can’t see how qubes os could help her. You indeed have to spend some effort to use Qubes OS. However if your grandma cares about security/privacy, she could perhaps use basic Qubes functionality like having two VMs, one for everything trusted and the other for everything untrusted. VMs on Qubes look like normal windows, so it's not that complicated to work with. You have to separate your workflows though. > I just clone a generic vbox instance and delete it afterwards Hardware VT-d virtualization is much more secure. Also the GUI is more user-friendly.
  - Const-me 5y ago
    > Hardware VT-d virtualization is much more secure. Also the GUI is more user-friendly. What's the security difference? AFAIK all modern VM hosts use everything available, Intel VT-x, EPT, VT-d, VT-c, AMD RVI, whatever. Virtual Box ain't an exception.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      1. It prevents DMA attacks allowing PCI devices to read, write the memory. https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#why-is-vt-dadm-viamd-iommu-important https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#why-is-vt-dadm-viamd-iommu-imp... 2. Meltdown, the most reliable attack of the three discussed, cannot be exploited _from_ a fully-virtualized (i.e. HVM or PVH) VM. https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-secpack/blob/master/QSBs/qsb-037-2018.txt https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-secpack/blob/master/QSBs/qs... 3. It serves as an additional virtualization layer on top of Xen supervisor, decreasing the attack surface and making some serious bugs not harmful. https://www.qubes-os.org/news/2017/07/31/qubes-40-rc1/#fully-virtualized-vms-for-better-isolation https://www.qubes-os.org/news/2017/07/31/qubes-40-rc1/#fully...