5 ms·

How 38 Monks Took on the Funeral Cartel and Won

tantalor 15y ago
Caskets on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=casket&x=0&y=0 http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dap...
koops 15y ago
Just because we are bereaved does not make us saps!
rorrr 15y ago
It's amazing that it's even an issue.
- blantonl 15y ago
  there are many businesses around today that you might only once in a lifetime come across - if even at all. Funeral homes, disaster restoration companies, etc. However, they are amazingly competitive industries and have amazingly high margins. That means they will fight with all means they can to insure that their ability to protect those margins is in place.
  - cjdavis 15y ago
    How can they be amazingly competitive industries AND have amazingly high margins at the same time? I thought those were mutually exclusive things.
    - blantonl 15y ago
      the reason is because of the lack of players in the industry in any given locale. First, in my examples above, those businesses are highly undesirable industries to be involved in as an owner and an employee, but highly profitable. Second, most of those above listed businesses are family owned with a lot of experience and background in the industry they represent. Newcomers are viewed as strongly suspicious and since those existing entities know the ins and outs, it is an uphill climb. This doesn't mean that good innovation cannot overcome the obstacles that these very established businesses have, but you can bet that tradition and experience in those businesses will lead to a lot of ammunition for a fierce fight when newcomers arrive on the scene.
      - Joakal 15y ago
        Or there's high costs to entry and this can lead to collusions "Lets agree on 100x mark up for this suburb". Eg telcos.
  - w1ntermute 15y ago
    > there are many businesses around today that you might only once in a lifetime come across Another good example is matrimonial services. Companies in the matrimonial industry make a killing, and with the right kind of advertising, the market can be easily disrupted.
ranqet 15y ago
This isn't so much about the funeral industry in Louisiana. It's the precedence it could set for anyone else out there who wants to challenge another state regulated cartel (think of car dealerships for example). From the article: "'defendants moved to dismiss based on the legal issue of whether protecting a discrete interest group from economic competition constitutes a sufficient legitimate government purpose.' Put more simply, it's as if they said, Our purpose here is to protect profits in the funeral industry, these regulations are a rational way to do that, and we're allowed to pick market winners and losers if we so desire -- after all, its only intrastate commerce we're talking about."
- InclinedPlane 15y ago
  Car dealerships, optometry, beauticians, farming, general contracting, you name it there's a regulatory blanket over it. In most states you can't get glasses or contacts made without a prescription that is less than a few years old, for example.
  - sandGorgon 15y ago
    is that why, probably the longest thread on fatwallet, is about ZenniOptical, which ships from China ?
- callmeed 15y ago
  Title insurance comes to mind as well. I have a friend in law school and we were just discussing disrupting these guys with a startup $1,470 per search/policy ... at a cost to them of about $100 http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2006/1113/148.html http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2006/1113/148.html
pessimizer 15y ago
May I recommend "The American Way of Death" by Jessica Mitford (the entirely human Mitford sister)? The basic story is that the funeral industry completely captured the regulating of the disposal of dead people a long, long time ago.
- cpr 15y ago
  C'mon, all the Mitford sisters were fun people--one was a passing girlfriend of Hitler, one of Mussolini, one married the head of the brownshirts (fascist league) in Britain. Jessica married a Marxist professor at Berkeley (I believe it was). Actually, wasn't it Nancy who was generally less wild (and the most famous of the sisters)? If you read Evelyn Waugh's Letters, there's a whole treasure trove of exchanges with the Mitford sisters.
beaker 15y ago
It seems like there is a market opportunity here for anyone motivated enough to take on the old guard in this industry. It's not the most glamorous subject, but there is a lot of money sitting on the table. If someone applied to YC with something like "Funera.ly: the app that makes funeral preparations simple, fairly-priced, and dignified", well I wouldn't be surprised if they got accepted...
- rfrey 15y ago
  Currently plastered all over the Toronto transit system: ads for http://www.basicfunerals.ca/ http://www.basicfunerals.ca/
  - rokhayakebe 15y ago
    Ok, I do not want people to be crying at my funerals, but I am not sure I want them to be happily enjoying a bottle of cabernet at my expense. (referring to the picture on their homepage)
- rokhayakebe 15y ago
  Yup. And everyone in your country is a solid potential customer.
- genieyclo 15y ago
  Check out Funeral Innovations: http://funeralinnovations.com/ http://funeralinnovations.com/ It solves the problem for both the customers/family and the funeral directors. Monument design, obituaries (with a social component), QR remembrance codes, whole webstack management (a la weebly) with custom site design and tracking & SEO, pricing and invoicing, iPad app, and more. Done by Greg Young and Zack Garbow (YC alum, 08). The issues they've faced tackling an old and sleepy industry averse to major change and innovation are interesting. There's a great interview on Tech.MN here with Zack about it: http://tech.mn/news/2010/05/03/minnesota-y-combinator-grad-turned-serial-tech-entrepreneur-local-startup-spotlight-19-funeral-innovations/ http://tech.mn/news/2010/05/03/minnesota-y-combinator-grad-t...
smokeyj 15y ago
Further evidence "regulation" is just legal favoritism.
- njharman 15y ago
  Capitalism + regulation. Without profit there is no motive for favoritism.
  - smokeyj 15y ago
    Without profit there is no motive for anything. Don't assume only capital yields profits.
DCoder 15y ago
There has grown in the minds of certain groups in this country the idea that just because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with guaranteeing such a profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is supported by neither statute or common law. Neither corporations or individuals have the right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back. R. A. Heinlein, "Life-Line", 1939
skrebbel 15y ago
I'm rather impressed that US states can, apparently, really make the case that protecting particular businesses against competing businesses is a "state function". What the hell? Shouldn't the exact opposite be a state function? Is this common in the US? (governments openly and clearly admitting to favouring A over B, because people high up like A better) It sounds like the direct opposite of a free market to me, and isn't that what the US is supposed to be all about? I mean, here in the Netherlands, we'd call that corruption and a scandal would ensue (which doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it just means that governments wouldn't admit such practices so openly). Note: I don't mean to judge; I just genuinely wonder how these things are viewed by common Americans.
- cydonian_monk 15y ago
  It may not be common everywhere in the country, but it's a fact of life in the poorer and less affluent states. Especially in Appalachia, where many state governments are basically run by industry groups. Case in point: [1] Caperton v A.T. Massey Coal Co: A recent case from my former home state where a coal operator effectively bought a judge, who then ruled in favour of said coal operator. The U.S. Supreme Court eventually made sense of it [and unfortunately the case was later dismissed on a technicality], but there are many, many other examples of this type of "corruption" that never make it to a higher review. So in that sense, no, we don't really have a free market. We have a Corporate Republic that protects the interests of its largest citizens. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caperton_v._A.T._Massey_Coal_Co http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caperton_v._A.T._Massey_Coal_Co.
- gallerytungsten 15y ago
  It's very common in the US, at all levels of government, from the smallest towns, to big cities, county governments, state governments, and the federal government. If you look up the "Institute of Justice," the law firm representing the monks, you'll find some pithy prose on their site describing such favoritism as the "favorite pastime" of said governments. As a Louisiana resident, I've been following this case for a while, and I'm delighted by the results. But there are many more such ridiculous laws that should be overturned. Here's hoping that the monks prevail all the way to the Supreme Court.
- 15y ago

Caskets on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=casket&x=0&y=0 http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dap...

koops 15y ago

Just because we are bereaved does not make us saps!

rorrr 15y ago

It's amazing that it's even an issue.

blantonl 15y ago
there are many businesses around today that you might only once in a lifetime come across - if even at all. Funeral homes, disaster restoration companies, etc. However, they are amazingly competitive industries and have amazingly high margins. That means they will fight with all means they can to insure that their ability to protect those margins is in place.
- cjdavis 15y ago
  How can they be amazingly competitive industries AND have amazingly high margins at the same time? I thought those were mutually exclusive things.
  - blantonl 15y ago
    the reason is because of the lack of players in the industry in any given locale. First, in my examples above, those businesses are highly undesirable industries to be involved in as an owner and an employee, but highly profitable. Second, most of those above listed businesses are family owned with a lot of experience and background in the industry they represent. Newcomers are viewed as strongly suspicious and since those existing entities know the ins and outs, it is an uphill climb. This doesn't mean that good innovation cannot overcome the obstacles that these very established businesses have, but you can bet that tradition and experience in those businesses will lead to a lot of ammunition for a fierce fight when newcomers arrive on the scene.
    - Joakal 15y ago
      Or there's high costs to entry and this can lead to collusions "Lets agree on 100x mark up for this suburb". Eg telcos.
- w1ntermute 15y ago
  > there are many businesses around today that you might only once in a lifetime come across Another good example is matrimonial services. Companies in the matrimonial industry make a killing, and with the right kind of advertising, the market can be easily disrupted.

ranqet 15y ago

This isn't so much about the funeral industry in Louisiana. It's the precedence it could set for anyone else out there who wants to challenge another state regulated cartel (think of car dealerships for example). From the article: "'defendants moved to dismiss based on the legal issue of whether protecting a discrete interest group from economic competition constitutes a sufficient legitimate government purpose.' Put more simply, it's as if they said, Our purpose here is to protect profits in the funeral industry, these regulations are a rational way to do that, and we're allowed to pick market winners and losers if we so desire -- after all, its only intrastate commerce we're talking about."

InclinedPlane 15y ago
Car dealerships, optometry, beauticians, farming, general contracting, you name it there's a regulatory blanket over it. In most states you can't get glasses or contacts made without a prescription that is less than a few years old, for example.
- sandGorgon 15y ago
  is that why, probably the longest thread on fatwallet, is about ZenniOptical, which ships from China ?
callmeed 15y ago
Title insurance comes to mind as well. I have a friend in law school and we were just discussing disrupting these guys with a startup $1,470 per search/policy ... at a cost to them of about $100 http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2006/1113/148.html http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2006/1113/148.html

pessimizer 15y ago

May I recommend "The American Way of Death" by Jessica Mitford (the entirely human Mitford sister)? The basic story is that the funeral industry completely captured the regulating of the disposal of dead people a long, long time ago.

cpr 15y ago
C'mon, all the Mitford sisters were fun people--one was a passing girlfriend of Hitler, one of Mussolini, one married the head of the brownshirts (fascist league) in Britain. Jessica married a Marxist professor at Berkeley (I believe it was). Actually, wasn't it Nancy who was generally less wild (and the most famous of the sisters)? If you read Evelyn Waugh's Letters, there's a whole treasure trove of exchanges with the Mitford sisters.

beaker 15y ago

It seems like there is a market opportunity here for anyone motivated enough to take on the old guard in this industry. It's not the most glamorous subject, but there is a lot of money sitting on the table. If someone applied to YC with something like "Funera.ly: the app that makes funeral preparations simple, fairly-priced, and dignified", well I wouldn't be surprised if they got accepted...

rfrey 15y ago
Currently plastered all over the Toronto transit system: ads for http://www.basicfunerals.ca/ http://www.basicfunerals.ca/
- rokhayakebe 15y ago
  Ok, I do not want people to be crying at my funerals, but I am not sure I want them to be happily enjoying a bottle of cabernet at my expense. (referring to the picture on their homepage)
rokhayakebe 15y ago
Yup. And everyone in your country is a solid potential customer.
genieyclo 15y ago
Check out Funeral Innovations: http://funeralinnovations.com/ http://funeralinnovations.com/ It solves the problem for both the customers/family and the funeral directors. Monument design, obituaries (with a social component), QR remembrance codes, whole webstack management (a la weebly) with custom site design and tracking & SEO, pricing and invoicing, iPad app, and more. Done by Greg Young and Zack Garbow (YC alum, 08). The issues they've faced tackling an old and sleepy industry averse to major change and innovation are interesting. There's a great interview on Tech.MN here with Zack about it: http://tech.mn/news/2010/05/03/minnesota-y-combinator-grad-turned-serial-tech-entrepreneur-local-startup-spotlight-19-funeral-innovations/ http://tech.mn/news/2010/05/03/minnesota-y-combinator-grad-t...

smokeyj 15y ago

Further evidence "regulation" is just legal favoritism.

njharman 15y ago
Capitalism + regulation. Without profit there is no motive for favoritism.
- smokeyj 15y ago
  Without profit there is no motive for anything. Don't assume only capital yields profits.

DCoder 15y ago

There has grown in the minds of certain groups in this country the idea that just because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with guaranteeing such a profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is supported by neither statute or common law. Neither corporations or individuals have the right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back. R. A. Heinlein, "Life-Line", 1939

skrebbel 15y ago

I'm rather impressed that US states can, apparently, really make the case that protecting particular businesses against competing businesses is a "state function". What the hell? Shouldn't the exact opposite be a state function? Is this common in the US? (governments openly and clearly admitting to favouring A over B, because people high up like A better) It sounds like the direct opposite of a free market to me, and isn't that what the US is supposed to be all about? I mean, here in the Netherlands, we'd call that corruption and a scandal would ensue (which doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it just means that governments wouldn't admit such practices so openly). Note: I don't mean to judge; I just genuinely wonder how these things are viewed by common Americans.

cydonian_monk 15y ago
It may not be common everywhere in the country, but it's a fact of life in the poorer and less affluent states. Especially in Appalachia, where many state governments are basically run by industry groups. Case in point: [1] Caperton v A.T. Massey Coal Co: A recent case from my former home state where a coal operator effectively bought a judge, who then ruled in favour of said coal operator. The U.S. Supreme Court eventually made sense of it [and unfortunately the case was later dismissed on a technicality], but there are many, many other examples of this type of "corruption" that never make it to a higher review. So in that sense, no, we don't really have a free market. We have a Corporate Republic that protects the interests of its largest citizens. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caperton_v._A.T._Massey_Coal_Co http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caperton_v._A.T._Massey_Coal_Co.
gallerytungsten 15y ago
It's very common in the US, at all levels of government, from the smallest towns, to big cities, county governments, state governments, and the federal government. If you look up the "Institute of Justice," the law firm representing the monks, you'll find some pithy prose on their site describing such favoritism as the "favorite pastime" of said governments. As a Louisiana resident, I've been following this case for a while, and I'm delighted by the results. But there are many more such ridiculous laws that should be overturned. Here's hoping that the monks prevail all the way to the Supreme Court.
15y ago