5 ms·

I'd love to be able to buy "cheap" batteries that are big, large, heavy, but cheap (per kWh). Sadly there are many startups but none are selling as of now. The

by Faaak 5y ago

I'd love to be able to buy "cheap" batteries that are big, large, heavy, but cheap (per kWh). Sadly there are many startups but none are selling as of now. The only one I found ("Salt battery") was more expensive than Lithium but with less cycles...

Andys 5y ago
Edison batteries (Nickle-iron), although expensive initialy, are apparently the cheapest batteries once you factor in their lifetime of multiple decades without degradation.
- jiminymcmoogley 5y ago
  I'd also look into LTO (lithium titanate oxide) if you're interested in long term cost per KWh, not because they are cheap by any means but because they (allegedly) last so long that you'd only be able to replace them maybe twice over your lifetime, it's a pretty new chemistry so unfortunately it's rather early days to verify whether any of the consumer offerings available today will actually perform for as long as the companies manufacturing them suggest (I've seen figures quoted everywhere between 5000 and 30000 cycles at 70% DoD), or whether you could even take advantage of those kinds of cycle counts before the cells just died from calendar ageing. Back to NiFe though, you can certainly get decades of use comfortably out of NiFe cells, but it's worth taking into account that they require a lot of maintenance, routinely topping up each cell with deionized water (there are automated systems you can buy or build yourself to manage this though), and every few years the KOH electrolyte inside them will need replacing every few years, plus you will want to keep your cells adequately ventilated as they vent hydrogen periodically. I would definitely NOT recommend lead-acid, sure the upfront cost is lower than anything else by quite a ways, but they won't last long at all, and as a result I'd be surprised if you weren't paying a lot more in the long run.
  - newyankee 5y ago
    Do you think they are expensive because new and not manufactured at scale, or because titanium/titanate is expensive ? I know that Toshiba manufactures these and apparently it was in talk with Apple to contract manufacture it for them.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    It’s worth mentioning that cheap (and safe and and abundant mineral resource) LiFePO4 batteries can last 5000 cycles or more if you charge and discharge them carefully.
jeffbee 5y ago
The big, large, heavy, cheap battery you are looking for is the lead-acid battery. The market for them is still larger than the global lithium-ion market, and they're quite suitable for stationary applications. Many off-the-grid houses use banks of lead-acid batteries.
- andrew_ 5y ago
  LiFePo are starting to make a splash (pun intended) in the marine sector now that costs have started to fall, but lead acid still rules the roost. I have 4 AGMs and one Lithium in my vessel.
  - newyankee 5y ago
    I have heard that large contracts on LFP batteries have touched under 100$/kwh in China, but on the retail side i have never seen anything cheaper than 300$/kwh ever sold. I guess even touching something like 200$/kwh retail is a big deal and might happen sooner than later with the flood of battery makers coming in.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      Yeah, China domestically got really good at LFP chemistry. The US doesn’t make LFP domestically, and from what I understand it’s overall less common outside of China. I’m a big LFP fan. Under-rated and already capable of many things people claim for new chemistries (long cycle life, much safer, low cost, using very abundant minerals, etc).
    - guerby 5y ago
      On aliexpress you find LFP at about 130-140 USD/kWh https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002625171294.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002625171294.html (random link, never tested this vendor). Prices have gone up a bit in the last few monthes. Good source of information on Chinese LFP vendors here: https://diysolarforum.com https://diysolarforum.com
  - Robotbeat 5y ago

by Faaak 5y ago

Andys 5y ago

Edison batteries (Nickle-iron), although expensive initialy, are apparently the cheapest batteries once you factor in their lifetime of multiple decades without degradation.

jiminymcmoogley 5y ago
I'd also look into LTO (lithium titanate oxide) if you're interested in long term cost per KWh, not because they are cheap by any means but because they (allegedly) last so long that you'd only be able to replace them maybe twice over your lifetime, it's a pretty new chemistry so unfortunately it's rather early days to verify whether any of the consumer offerings available today will actually perform for as long as the companies manufacturing them suggest (I've seen figures quoted everywhere between 5000 and 30000 cycles at 70% DoD), or whether you could even take advantage of those kinds of cycle counts before the cells just died from calendar ageing. Back to NiFe though, you can certainly get decades of use comfortably out of NiFe cells, but it's worth taking into account that they require a lot of maintenance, routinely topping up each cell with deionized water (there are automated systems you can buy or build yourself to manage this though), and every few years the KOH electrolyte inside them will need replacing every few years, plus you will want to keep your cells adequately ventilated as they vent hydrogen periodically. I would definitely NOT recommend lead-acid, sure the upfront cost is lower than anything else by quite a ways, but they won't last long at all, and as a result I'd be surprised if you weren't paying a lot more in the long run.
- newyankee 5y ago
  Do you think they are expensive because new and not manufactured at scale, or because titanium/titanate is expensive ? I know that Toshiba manufactures these and apparently it was in talk with Apple to contract manufacture it for them.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  It’s worth mentioning that cheap (and safe and and abundant mineral resource) LiFePO4 batteries can last 5000 cycles or more if you charge and discharge them carefully.

jeffbee 5y ago

The big, large, heavy, cheap battery you are looking for is the lead-acid battery. The market for them is still larger than the global lithium-ion market, and they're quite suitable for stationary applications. Many off-the-grid houses use banks of lead-acid batteries.

andrew_ 5y ago
LiFePo are starting to make a splash (pun intended) in the marine sector now that costs have started to fall, but lead acid still rules the roost. I have 4 AGMs and one Lithium in my vessel.
- newyankee 5y ago
  I have heard that large contracts on LFP batteries have touched under 100$/kwh in China, but on the retail side i have never seen anything cheaper than 300$/kwh ever sold. I guess even touching something like 200$/kwh retail is a big deal and might happen sooner than later with the flood of battery makers coming in.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    Yeah, China domestically got really good at LFP chemistry. The US doesn’t make LFP domestically, and from what I understand it’s overall less common outside of China. I’m a big LFP fan. Under-rated and already capable of many things people claim for new chemistries (long cycle life, much safer, low cost, using very abundant minerals, etc).
  - guerby 5y ago
    On aliexpress you find LFP at about 130-140 USD/kWh https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002625171294.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002625171294.html (random link, never tested this vendor). Prices have gone up a bit in the last few monthes. Good source of information on Chinese LFP vendors here: https://diysolarforum.com https://diysolarforum.com
- Robotbeat 5y ago