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From what I hear from everyone I know with kids... >How would you handle it if they bought their own 2nd cellphone, and only used the cellular network to escap

by MrFoof 5y ago

From what I hear from everyone I know with kids... >How would you handle it if they bought their own 2nd cellphone, and only used the cellular network to escape your control. That's what really happens. Lock your kid down? They'll get right around it by going outside of the infrastructure and devices you supply. They'll just carry two phones around, and you just won't be wiser about the second one unless you catch them with it.

retrac 5y ago
Yes. Our collective age is showing, perhaps. One can buy a new phone or tablet, with a month's data plan, with a few days' lunch money now, in some places. This translates into there being no practical way to keep a dedicated teenager off the Internet, unless they're literally never allowed out of the house and monitored 24/7. (And that might well be child abuse without very good cause! And you've probably already lost if you're at that point, anyway.) It won't work with every child... but I am a big believer in fostering the means for a child to make the right decisions for themselves. Yes, the social pressures are immense. But you know, I do remember following my dad's advice to get up a few times an hour, exercise and stretch, when playing video games. Older children worry about their health, and try to make good decisions within their abilities, just like adults do. Perhaps we can't really protect them from this per se, and can only try to help the next generation save themselves, from this mess we've made for them.
- Jcowell 5y ago
  Yup the solution isn’t always about restricting but educating. Teach them the Ill effects in a respectable matter and deal with the consequences in a respectable manner. Parents job isn’t to not make kids mess up but allow environment for them to fail and learn from those failures and to reduce (not eliminate) the fallout.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    Nowadays, corporate and govt surveillance is pervasive. Consequences cannot be "dealt with" after the fact, and deletion is no longer an option. Mistakes are a part of your "permanent record," (with a nod to Jane's Addiction). It's not like the old days when you knew they'd find a Playboy magazine eventually.
    - tehjoker 5y ago
      For a sec I thought you were talking about Snowden's Book https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250237231 https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250237231
      - mixmastamyk 5y ago
        It’s the same phrase, and related, yes.
- Macha 5y ago
  It's a hard one to know. I knew my parents CC details from about 12, and they knew this, they would often ask me when buying stuff online rather than fetch it from their wallet in another room. If I wanted to buy something online, I just asked first, made the purchase and gave them the cash from my own savings from pocket money. I'd like to think I was pretty mature at that age, and my parents would like to think they had done a good enough job raising me that this would never be a problem, and it never was. But we can clearly see from stories of kids spending large amounts of money in FIFA or mobile games or whatever, that this is not true for every kid. The fact that online purchases were a slow user experience in the 90s meant that I had the concept of purchases, and paying back my parents in cash reinforced the concept of spending real money. Since I had my own savings, I could also see the impact to myself if I spent more than reasonable on Pokemon cards or whatever. If it had just been pressing a button in a video game like it is for modern kids, and wasn't trusted to mind my own money (or that money was just numbers in a bank account), would I have realized the same at age 12? Or would my parents ended up as the ones that "should have known better". How much of that is good parenting, versus a different environment? I don't know. I don't have kids of my own, and my life situation is such that I don't consider it a practical near term possibility, but I'd like to think I could raise my own kids so I could extend that level of trust, but a lot of people would see just the fact that the kids had that kind of information irresponsible in its entirety.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  Where can you buy a phone/tablet that’s capable of browsing the internet, and a data plan with enough data to be worthwhile, for a few days of lunch money? Actually, would retail stores even sell a data plan to an unaccompanied minor? You could buy a SIM online I suppose, possibly via a gift card, and watch the mail carefully to ensure the package isn't seen, but it all seems like a lot of work for a small amount of web browsing. I’d think that in the worst case scenario, the child goes through the process once, browses the internet for a couple of days on a super crappy device, uses up their data, and realizes the whole thing wasn't really worth it. Maybe they do it again in a few months when they're particularly bored; whatever, it's a few days out of the year.
  - retrac 5y ago
    https://www.amazon.ca/ZTE-Z557-8GB-Android-Smartphone/dp/B08QMZ3LJ9/ https://www.amazon.ca/ZTE-Z557-8GB-Android-Smartphone/dp/B08... That's about 50 USD. Same day delivery, too! Devices can be found even a bit cheaper sometimes, as little as 35 USD. I see such devices in corner stores, grocery and drug stores. It's a bit of a clunker sure. But it'll stream porn or display Instagram just fine. (That device actually has a faster CPU, though less RAM, than my present smartphone, from 2018, which I have seen no need to upgrade yet.) A prepaid data plan will set you back about 25 a month here, but Canada has infamously high mobile fees. I know people in the EU who pay about $10 a month for unlimited mobile data. And yes. They will sell one to an unaccompanied minor. Sure, maybe not a 6 year old, but if a 14 year old comes in with the money, that's a sale. There's no law against it (at least here). And unlike with a 14 year old trying to buy a giant butcher knife or spraypaint or whatever, society doesn't seem to have a "uhh, wait a minute" catch on this particular one. It's just a phone. Every kid has a phone, right? They probably just broke their last one. Again.
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      > It's just a phone. Every kid has a phone, right? It's the plan I was thinking the store wouldn't sell, don't those have to be in someone's name? (But I might be wrong, I've never used a prepaid SIM.) > I know people in the EU who pay about $10 a month for unlimited mobile data. Perhaps, but not on a prepaid plan. I'm sure you can't buy a post-paid plan as a minor, that wouldn't make any sense!
orzig 5y ago
The lock on my front door could probably be picked, but I still use it. Raising the effort required to do something can have a perfectly good ROI without being perfect. Same goes with reasoning and any other approach you might try to take (preferably in conjunction)
turtlebits 5y ago
Kids need to learn self control, reason and consequences before giving/using a cell phone. (as well as most other screen based activities). Parents are relying too much on screens as a form of parenting/entertainment without teaching these critical skills.

by MrFoof 5y ago

retrac 5y ago

Yes. Our collective age is showing, perhaps. One can buy a new phone or tablet, with a month's data plan, with a few days' lunch money now, in some places. This translates into there being no practical way to keep a dedicated teenager off the Internet, unless they're literally never allowed out of the house and monitored 24/7. (And that might well be child abuse without very good cause! And you've probably already lost if you're at that point, anyway.) It won't work with every child... but I am a big believer in fostering the means for a child to make the right decisions for themselves. Yes, the social pressures are immense. But you know, I do remember following my dad's advice to get up a few times an hour, exercise and stretch, when playing video games. Older children worry about their health, and try to make good decisions within their abilities, just like adults do. Perhaps we can't really protect them from this per se, and can only try to help the next generation save themselves, from this mess we've made for them.

Jcowell 5y ago
Yup the solution isn’t always about restricting but educating. Teach them the Ill effects in a respectable matter and deal with the consequences in a respectable manner. Parents job isn’t to not make kids mess up but allow environment for them to fail and learn from those failures and to reduce (not eliminate) the fallout.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  Nowadays, corporate and govt surveillance is pervasive. Consequences cannot be "dealt with" after the fact, and deletion is no longer an option. Mistakes are a part of your "permanent record," (with a nod to Jane's Addiction). It's not like the old days when you knew they'd find a Playboy magazine eventually.
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    For a sec I thought you were talking about Snowden's Book https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250237231 https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250237231
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      It’s the same phrase, and related, yes.
Macha 5y ago
It's a hard one to know. I knew my parents CC details from about 12, and they knew this, they would often ask me when buying stuff online rather than fetch it from their wallet in another room. If I wanted to buy something online, I just asked first, made the purchase and gave them the cash from my own savings from pocket money. I'd like to think I was pretty mature at that age, and my parents would like to think they had done a good enough job raising me that this would never be a problem, and it never was. But we can clearly see from stories of kids spending large amounts of money in FIFA or mobile games or whatever, that this is not true for every kid. The fact that online purchases were a slow user experience in the 90s meant that I had the concept of purchases, and paying back my parents in cash reinforced the concept of spending real money. Since I had my own savings, I could also see the impact to myself if I spent more than reasonable on Pokemon cards or whatever. If it had just been pressing a button in a video game like it is for modern kids, and wasn't trusted to mind my own money (or that money was just numbers in a bank account), would I have realized the same at age 12? Or would my parents ended up as the ones that "should have known better". How much of that is good parenting, versus a different environment? I don't know. I don't have kids of my own, and my life situation is such that I don't consider it a practical near term possibility, but I'd like to think I could raise my own kids so I could extend that level of trust, but a lot of people would see just the fact that the kids had that kind of information irresponsible in its entirety.
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
Where can you buy a phone/tablet that’s capable of browsing the internet, and a data plan with enough data to be worthwhile, for a few days of lunch money? Actually, would retail stores even sell a data plan to an unaccompanied minor? You could buy a SIM online I suppose, possibly via a gift card, and watch the mail carefully to ensure the package isn't seen, but it all seems like a lot of work for a small amount of web browsing. I’d think that in the worst case scenario, the child goes through the process once, browses the internet for a couple of days on a super crappy device, uses up their data, and realizes the whole thing wasn't really worth it. Maybe they do it again in a few months when they're particularly bored; whatever, it's a few days out of the year.
- retrac 5y ago
  https://www.amazon.ca/ZTE-Z557-8GB-Android-Smartphone/dp/B08QMZ3LJ9/ https://www.amazon.ca/ZTE-Z557-8GB-Android-Smartphone/dp/B08... That's about 50 USD. Same day delivery, too! Devices can be found even a bit cheaper sometimes, as little as 35 USD. I see such devices in corner stores, grocery and drug stores. It's a bit of a clunker sure. But it'll stream porn or display Instagram just fine. (That device actually has a faster CPU, though less RAM, than my present smartphone, from 2018, which I have seen no need to upgrade yet.) A prepaid data plan will set you back about 25 a month here, but Canada has infamously high mobile fees. I know people in the EU who pay about $10 a month for unlimited mobile data. And yes. They will sell one to an unaccompanied minor. Sure, maybe not a 6 year old, but if a 14 year old comes in with the money, that's a sale. There's no law against it (at least here). And unlike with a 14 year old trying to buy a giant butcher knife or spraypaint or whatever, society doesn't seem to have a "uhh, wait a minute" catch on this particular one. It's just a phone. Every kid has a phone, right? They probably just broke their last one. Again.
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    > It's just a phone. Every kid has a phone, right? It's the plan I was thinking the store wouldn't sell, don't those have to be in someone's name? (But I might be wrong, I've never used a prepaid SIM.) > I know people in the EU who pay about $10 a month for unlimited mobile data. Perhaps, but not on a prepaid plan. I'm sure you can't buy a post-paid plan as a minor, that wouldn't make any sense!

orzig 5y ago

The lock on my front door could probably be picked, but I still use it. Raising the effort required to do something can have a perfectly good ROI without being perfect. Same goes with reasoning and any other approach you might try to take (preferably in conjunction)

turtlebits 5y ago

Kids need to learn self control, reason and consequences before giving/using a cell phone. (as well as most other screen based activities). Parents are relying too much on screens as a form of parenting/entertainment without teaching these critical skills.