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How would you handle it if they begged, pleaded, and explained how all their friends use it and it'd be social ostracism to not use it? I'm not a parent yet bu

How would you handle it if they begged, pleaded, and explained how all their friends use it and it'd be social ostracism to not use it? I'm not a parent yet but I dread this situation. I'm good at denying urges personally, so I'd tell them desire is a constant part of life, we can't always get what we crave. Further, I'd state actual facts about girls mental health, they will see and be exposed to unhealthy mindsets on this app. Some good that'll do. When I have kids, it'll be "dad, why can't we join the VR orgy party? It's not real sex!"

iamstupidsimple 5y ago
> How would you handle it if they begged, pleaded, and explained how all their friends use it and it'd be social ostracism to not use it? Having been on both sides of this, as a teenager and having saw my siblings go through it, I don't envy you either. But I can talk about my personal experiences. I was very introverted as a kid, and tools like Facebook gave me a bit of social autonomy and confidence, and it absolutely strengthened my in-person relationships. I know others that feel the same. Not being contactable via the internet definitely can cause social ostracism, but a reasonable middle ground for me is something like Discord or WhatsApp, which is semi private and avoids the toxicity of The Feed.
austincheney 5y ago
> How would you handle it if they begged, pleaded, and explained how all their friends use it and it'd be social ostracism to not use it? I would be an adult and remind them that they are children and can fuck off. When they completely lose their minds about this smash the shit out their phone. It’s not actually their phone. It’s mine. As the adult I pay those bills. If that creates big tears they can pay for their own damn phone. I am a parent of teenagers and have gone through this.
- ramphastidae 5y ago
  Speaking from experience, if you keep that up, your kids will break contact with you as soon as they are old enough. If you decide that your parenting style is “fuck off,” you can expect the same attitude from your kids towards you when you are older. Hope you are ready to die on this hill.
  - austincheney 5y ago
    If that’s what happens only because you set boundaries around social media there are far deeper failures already in place.
    - anonymousab 5y ago
      > only because you set boundaries around social media Social media is social interaction. It's an inextricable part, if not the centerpiece for many kids these days. This is the modern equivalent of saying "no friends allowed"/"you can only see and talk to your friends for a couple of minutes a day", as hyperbolic as that may seem. Extreme rejection and rebellion is a logical outcome from that.
      - austincheney 5y ago
        It’s not the centerpiece if you are doing your job as a parent. > Extreme rejection and rebellion is a logical outcome from that. If that’s the result then you are failing as a parent.
        ben_w 5y ago
        Network effects: your kids don’t get to hang out IRL if everyone else’s parents let their kids meet all their social needs from social media. Don’t get me wrong, I think the world would be a much better place if the big players in social media ceased to exist, but no single person can act as an island, and you need to understand the problem well enough to give your kids alternatives rather than just put your foot down and say “no” — even us adults have trouble staying off whichever social network our friends and family use.
        austincheney 5y ago
        How is it an island if they socialize in the real world? They text their friends from the real world and share memes with each other all day. They don’t need a social media account to do any of that.
- yowlingcat 5y ago
  When it comes to parenting, I think the soonest you can healthily get your children to functioning with the independence and maturity of an adult (or at least the upper end of their age group), the better. And by contrast, the further you hold them back, so much the worse. What you're describing sounds like it would hold back your child's social development. I wouldn't recommend it.
  - austincheney 5y ago
    Freeing children from nonsense like drugs and social media isn’t holding them back. My children’s social development occurs in the real world where they participate in sports and educational activities and spend time with friends offline. Social media isn’t real socializing.
    - lupire 5y ago
      Why are you on HN, instead of in the real world?
      - austincheney 5y ago
        So that you can stalk me and downvote me.
    - yowlingcat 5y ago
      > Freeing children from nonsense like drugs and social media isn’t holding them back But surveilling on them will. You're using your own active involvement as a crutch to compensate for the fact that you can't leave them to their own devices and know they'll do the right thing. But how can they do that if you don't teach them and you don't give them the right chance to show they can do it? You're not teaching them to independently use the technology responsibly (or not at all), but rather you're forcing a behavior into place. It's a very short-term solution that will backfire when they're put out there on their own and you're not there to push them in the right direction. Sooner or later they'll need to figure out how to do things independently. Maybe some active handling is okay for a while, but eventually, you've got to take off the training wheels, no?
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  > they can pay for their own damn phone. What do you do when they mow some lawns and do just that?
  - austincheney 5y ago
    Reward them for their hard work and responsibility.
- 0xEFF 5y ago
  Caution is warranted on the you can have it if you can pay for it route. An enterprising teenager may earn money in undesirable ways. I’m a parent and I’m thinking I’ll handle this as a clear you can have it or you can’t to avoid the grey and black market incentives.
  - austincheney 5y ago
    While that sounds unpleasant the initiative is worthy of praise. It’s something to work within. I would probably prefer that outcome over drug addiction to Facebook or TikTok.
MrFoof 5y ago
From what I hear from everyone I know with kids... >How would you handle it if they bought their own 2nd cellphone, and only used the cellular network to escape your control. That's what really happens. Lock your kid down? They'll get right around it by going outside of the infrastructure and devices you supply. They'll just carry two phones around, and you just won't be wiser about the second one unless you catch them with it.
- retrac 5y ago
  Yes. Our collective age is showing, perhaps. One can buy a new phone or tablet, with a month's data plan, with a few days' lunch money now, in some places. This translates into there being no practical way to keep a dedicated teenager off the Internet, unless they're literally never allowed out of the house and monitored 24/7. (And that might well be child abuse without very good cause! And you've probably already lost if you're at that point, anyway.) It won't work with every child... but I am a big believer in fostering the means for a child to make the right decisions for themselves. Yes, the social pressures are immense. But you know, I do remember following my dad's advice to get up a few times an hour, exercise and stretch, when playing video games. Older children worry about their health, and try to make good decisions within their abilities, just like adults do. Perhaps we can't really protect them from this per se, and can only try to help the next generation save themselves, from this mess we've made for them.
  - Jcowell 5y ago
    Yup the solution isn’t always about restricting but educating. Teach them the Ill effects in a respectable matter and deal with the consequences in a respectable manner. Parents job isn’t to not make kids mess up but allow environment for them to fail and learn from those failures and to reduce (not eliminate) the fallout.
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      Nowadays, corporate and govt surveillance is pervasive. Consequences cannot be "dealt with" after the fact, and deletion is no longer an option. Mistakes are a part of your "permanent record," (with a nod to Jane's Addiction). It's not like the old days when you knew they'd find a Playboy magazine eventually.
longhairedhippy 5y ago
This is totally anecdotal but I have 3 teenagers and I think the most important thing is keeping up with what's going on in their lives and taking an active interest in making sure they are emotionally equipped to deal with the problems that come up. Teens are just people with very little experience dealing with their seemingly huge amounts of emotion so parents should help them process. We can't protect them from everything so trying to just hide the bad stuff is not going to work, folks will grow up without the tools to deal with it when things go wrong. Keeping up with what's going on and jumping in when they get stuck, either because the situation is overwhelming, they don't have the proper tools, or they're just putting too much weight on their shoulders, is super valuable. Unfortunately, with all of the pressures of daily life, combined with the struggles of folks in lower socio-economic environments, lots of people do not have enough time or surplus emotional budget to give it the proper attention, they're just trying to survive.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  My parents were liberal in allowing tech but had some practical limits which I think helped. (Dial up cost us $.25 per call.) Time limits and discussing their interests seem like a totally reasonable alternative to complete abstinence.
- enriquto 5y ago
  > making sure they are emotionally equipped to deal with the problems that come up This is a terrifyingly difficult prospect. I guess almost nobody in the world is so well equipped for that. There are really hard problems that nobody can "deal" with alone, like the death of loved ones, or social ostracism from your whole peer group. No matter how "well equipped" you are, some things may be simply overwhelming. EDIT: I learned this the hard way. I am well off economically and emotionally, always had a cushioned life, I became the father in a happy family, really felt totally invincible. But something happened at the age of 41 (sudden death of my dad, in very bad circumstances) that I was not prepared at all to deal with. I used to mock people who couldn't cope with their own problems, but as an adult I learned that some problems may be really too big to rationalize off. I guess many teenagers find themselves in such difficult situations that cannot really solve (like being a victim of overwhelming social pressure), regardless of how loving and close their parents are.
causality0 5y ago
all their friends use it and it'd be social ostracism to not use it? Is that a thing? I have plenty of friends that use Instagram but they don't look at each other's stuff or talk about what someone they know in real life posted. If they care about people they know seeing it they put it on Facebook or in the group chat.
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  Are you asking if social ostracism amongst teenagers is a thing?
  - bart_spoon 5y ago
    They are clearly asking if social ostracism due to not using a social media platform is a thing.
    - tailspin2019 5y ago
      I suppose my comment was a bit snarky because (in my view) social ostracism amongst teenagers is very definitely and obviously a thing for _almost every reason under the sun_ for some groups of kids - it's the nature of being a teenager. Emotional intelligence is not highly developed at that age, so social bubbles/cliques can be (but definitely not always) a bit fickle/fragile. Hence the topic of this article. Being prevented from using a social media platform at that age, that one's peers are all on would definitely lead to possible social issues in some groups. I'm assuming the commenter I was responding to is not a teenager (given mention of Facebook being their peer group's primary social media platform), so their experience of their peers being able to use social media in a more healthy manner is unlikely to map to the teenage experience. Some assumptions on my part. Not the most constructive "best possible interpretation" response, I'll admit. I'm also not expressing a strong opinion that kids should be "allowed" or "blocked" from usage of social media. It's a very tricky issue but absolutely not one to be dismissive of.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Because you're not a parent, here's a tip: kids are tougher than you give them credit for and they're tougher than they understand. Your responsibility as a parent is to figure out how to toughen them up without crushing their self-esteem. Instagram is not an essential part of any of this. If the worst thing your kid can say about you when they hit adulthood is "daddy didn't let me on Instagram," then you did a phenomenal job.
- lupire 5y ago
  You're missing the point. It's not "Dad didn't let me on Instagram". It's "Dad didn't let me have shared experiences to build relationships with my peers."
  - austincheney 5y ago
    Dad didn’t let me get drunk and do drugs. It’s dad allowed me to explore my emotions and expand my horizons. If you want children to have valid and engaging social experiences then encourage them to do so without a screen.
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    If a shared experience is toxic to the mental well-being of my kids, then they're not going to share in the experience. I'd rather my kid hate me for a couple years as a teenager for not letting them engage in harmful things than never getting out of their teenage years.
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      Oh, they'll going to hate you a lot longer than that.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
johnchristopher 5y ago
I think a friend of mine handled it well. He nurtured a trust based relationship with his children, trust was highly valued and it gave his children a lot of free way but he also set up clear boundaries. They could do try do things behind his back, they had full window to do it but trust was so ingrained that I don't recall him ever finding out huge problems. Which doesn't mean they wouldn't plead and beg and try to cajole to get something. At some point he would explain the rationale behind a decision but in the the end when push came to shove if a "no" was spoken it was a final "no". He isn't forced to justify his decisions and it's accepted as is and I think somehow trust plays a part here. Because his children knows that it's not the thing to get (smartphone, movie time, etc.) that is at play but trust (edit_begin) ultimately trust and the only way to get that thing would be by breaking trust (edit_end). They have to keep their parent's trust and parents know they can only get that trust by actually trusting. So, it works out. YMMV.
throw0101a 5y ago
> Further, I'd state actual facts about girls mental health, they will see and be exposed to unhealthy mindsets on this app. Contra: whether they're online or not, conversations about them will take place. And if they're not online then how can they defend themselves, either as an individual or by herding their friends in their defence as well.
turtlebits 5y ago
What happened to the days where you earned the privilege to have/do things? That there are consequence with breaking the rules? Show them how to use it responsibly, the downsides that can come out of it. Start with limits and let them earn the right to have more access. When you kid starts riding a bike you don't let them ride everywhere, you let them stay on the block, and if they understand safety and are being safe, you slowly expand the range they can go.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

iamstupidsimple 5y ago

> How would you handle it if they begged, pleaded, and explained how all their friends use it and it'd be social ostracism to not use it? Having been on both sides of this, as a teenager and having saw my siblings go through it, I don't envy you either. But I can talk about my personal experiences. I was very introverted as a kid, and tools like Facebook gave me a bit of social autonomy and confidence, and it absolutely strengthened my in-person relationships. I know others that feel the same. Not being contactable via the internet definitely can cause social ostracism, but a reasonable middle ground for me is something like Discord or WhatsApp, which is semi private and avoids the toxicity of The Feed.

austincheney 5y ago

> How would you handle it if they begged, pleaded, and explained how all their friends use it and it'd be social ostracism to not use it? I would be an adult and remind them that they are children and can fuck off. When they completely lose their minds about this smash the shit out their phone. It’s not actually their phone. It’s mine. As the adult I pay those bills. If that creates big tears they can pay for their own damn phone. I am a parent of teenagers and have gone through this.

ramphastidae 5y ago
Speaking from experience, if you keep that up, your kids will break contact with you as soon as they are old enough. If you decide that your parenting style is “fuck off,” you can expect the same attitude from your kids towards you when you are older. Hope you are ready to die on this hill.
- austincheney 5y ago
  If that’s what happens only because you set boundaries around social media there are far deeper failures already in place.
  - anonymousab 5y ago
    > only because you set boundaries around social media Social media is social interaction. It's an inextricable part, if not the centerpiece for many kids these days. This is the modern equivalent of saying "no friends allowed"/"you can only see and talk to your friends for a couple of minutes a day", as hyperbolic as that may seem. Extreme rejection and rebellion is a logical outcome from that.
    - austincheney 5y ago
      It’s not the centerpiece if you are doing your job as a parent. > Extreme rejection and rebellion is a logical outcome from that. If that’s the result then you are failing as a parent.
      - ben_w 5y ago
        Network effects: your kids don’t get to hang out IRL if everyone else’s parents let their kids meet all their social needs from social media. Don’t get me wrong, I think the world would be a much better place if the big players in social media ceased to exist, but no single person can act as an island, and you need to understand the problem well enough to give your kids alternatives rather than just put your foot down and say “no” — even us adults have trouble staying off whichever social network our friends and family use.
        austincheney 5y ago
        How is it an island if they socialize in the real world? They text their friends from the real world and share memes with each other all day. They don’t need a social media account to do any of that.
yowlingcat 5y ago
When it comes to parenting, I think the soonest you can healthily get your children to functioning with the independence and maturity of an adult (or at least the upper end of their age group), the better. And by contrast, the further you hold them back, so much the worse. What you're describing sounds like it would hold back your child's social development. I wouldn't recommend it.
- austincheney 5y ago
  Freeing children from nonsense like drugs and social media isn’t holding them back. My children’s social development occurs in the real world where they participate in sports and educational activities and spend time with friends offline. Social media isn’t real socializing.
  - lupire 5y ago
    Why are you on HN, instead of in the real world?
    - austincheney 5y ago
      So that you can stalk me and downvote me.
  - yowlingcat 5y ago
    > Freeing children from nonsense like drugs and social media isn’t holding them back But surveilling on them will. You're using your own active involvement as a crutch to compensate for the fact that you can't leave them to their own devices and know they'll do the right thing. But how can they do that if you don't teach them and you don't give them the right chance to show they can do it? You're not teaching them to independently use the technology responsibly (or not at all), but rather you're forcing a behavior into place. It's a very short-term solution that will backfire when they're put out there on their own and you're not there to push them in the right direction. Sooner or later they'll need to figure out how to do things independently. Maybe some active handling is okay for a while, but eventually, you've got to take off the training wheels, no?
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
> they can pay for their own damn phone. What do you do when they mow some lawns and do just that?
- austincheney 5y ago
  Reward them for their hard work and responsibility.
0xEFF 5y ago
Caution is warranted on the you can have it if you can pay for it route. An enterprising teenager may earn money in undesirable ways. I’m a parent and I’m thinking I’ll handle this as a clear you can have it or you can’t to avoid the grey and black market incentives.
- austincheney 5y ago
  While that sounds unpleasant the initiative is worthy of praise. It’s something to work within. I would probably prefer that outcome over drug addiction to Facebook or TikTok.

MrFoof 5y ago

From what I hear from everyone I know with kids... >How would you handle it if they bought their own 2nd cellphone, and only used the cellular network to escape your control. That's what really happens. Lock your kid down? They'll get right around it by going outside of the infrastructure and devices you supply. They'll just carry two phones around, and you just won't be wiser about the second one unless you catch them with it.

retrac 5y ago
Yes. Our collective age is showing, perhaps. One can buy a new phone or tablet, with a month's data plan, with a few days' lunch money now, in some places. This translates into there being no practical way to keep a dedicated teenager off the Internet, unless they're literally never allowed out of the house and monitored 24/7. (And that might well be child abuse without very good cause! And you've probably already lost if you're at that point, anyway.) It won't work with every child... but I am a big believer in fostering the means for a child to make the right decisions for themselves. Yes, the social pressures are immense. But you know, I do remember following my dad's advice to get up a few times an hour, exercise and stretch, when playing video games. Older children worry about their health, and try to make good decisions within their abilities, just like adults do. Perhaps we can't really protect them from this per se, and can only try to help the next generation save themselves, from this mess we've made for them.
- Jcowell 5y ago
  Yup the solution isn’t always about restricting but educating. Teach them the Ill effects in a respectable matter and deal with the consequences in a respectable manner. Parents job isn’t to not make kids mess up but allow environment for them to fail and learn from those failures and to reduce (not eliminate) the fallout.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    Nowadays, corporate and govt surveillance is pervasive. Consequences cannot be "dealt with" after the fact, and deletion is no longer an option. Mistakes are a part of your "permanent record," (with a nod to Jane's Addiction). It's not like the old days when you knew they'd find a Playboy magazine eventually.

longhairedhippy 5y ago

This is totally anecdotal but I have 3 teenagers and I think the most important thing is keeping up with what's going on in their lives and taking an active interest in making sure they are emotionally equipped to deal with the problems that come up. Teens are just people with very little experience dealing with their seemingly huge amounts of emotion so parents should help them process. We can't protect them from everything so trying to just hide the bad stuff is not going to work, folks will grow up without the tools to deal with it when things go wrong. Keeping up with what's going on and jumping in when they get stuck, either because the situation is overwhelming, they don't have the proper tools, or they're just putting too much weight on their shoulders, is super valuable. Unfortunately, with all of the pressures of daily life, combined with the struggles of folks in lower socio-economic environments, lots of people do not have enough time or surplus emotional budget to give it the proper attention, they're just trying to survive.

paulryanrogers 5y ago
My parents were liberal in allowing tech but had some practical limits which I think helped. (Dial up cost us $.25 per call.) Time limits and discussing their interests seem like a totally reasonable alternative to complete abstinence.
enriquto 5y ago
> making sure they are emotionally equipped to deal with the problems that come up This is a terrifyingly difficult prospect. I guess almost nobody in the world is so well equipped for that. There are really hard problems that nobody can "deal" with alone, like the death of loved ones, or social ostracism from your whole peer group. No matter how "well equipped" you are, some things may be simply overwhelming. EDIT: I learned this the hard way. I am well off economically and emotionally, always had a cushioned life, I became the father in a happy family, really felt totally invincible. But something happened at the age of 41 (sudden death of my dad, in very bad circumstances) that I was not prepared at all to deal with. I used to mock people who couldn't cope with their own problems, but as an adult I learned that some problems may be really too big to rationalize off. I guess many teenagers find themselves in such difficult situations that cannot really solve (like being a victim of overwhelming social pressure), regardless of how loving and close their parents are.

causality0 5y ago

all their friends use it and it'd be social ostracism to not use it? Is that a thing? I have plenty of friends that use Instagram but they don't look at each other's stuff or talk about what someone they know in real life posted. If they care about people they know seeing it they put it on Facebook or in the group chat.

tailspin2019 5y ago
Are you asking if social ostracism amongst teenagers is a thing?
- bart_spoon 5y ago
  They are clearly asking if social ostracism due to not using a social media platform is a thing.
  - tailspin2019 5y ago
    I suppose my comment was a bit snarky because (in my view) social ostracism amongst teenagers is very definitely and obviously a thing for _almost every reason under the sun_ for some groups of kids - it's the nature of being a teenager. Emotional intelligence is not highly developed at that age, so social bubbles/cliques can be (but definitely not always) a bit fickle/fragile. Hence the topic of this article. Being prevented from using a social media platform at that age, that one's peers are all on would definitely lead to possible social issues in some groups. I'm assuming the commenter I was responding to is not a teenager (given mention of Facebook being their peer group's primary social media platform), so their experience of their peers being able to use social media in a more healthy manner is unlikely to map to the teenage experience. Some assumptions on my part. Not the most constructive "best possible interpretation" response, I'll admit. I'm also not expressing a strong opinion that kids should be "allowed" or "blocked" from usage of social media. It's a very tricky issue but absolutely not one to be dismissive of.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

Because you're not a parent, here's a tip: kids are tougher than you give them credit for and they're tougher than they understand. Your responsibility as a parent is to figure out how to toughen them up without crushing their self-esteem. Instagram is not an essential part of any of this. If the worst thing your kid can say about you when they hit adulthood is "daddy didn't let me on Instagram," then you did a phenomenal job.

lupire 5y ago
You're missing the point. It's not "Dad didn't let me on Instagram". It's "Dad didn't let me have shared experiences to build relationships with my peers."
- austincheney 5y ago
  Dad didn’t let me get drunk and do drugs. It’s dad allowed me to explore my emotions and expand my horizons. If you want children to have valid and engaging social experiences then encourage them to do so without a screen.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  If a shared experience is toxic to the mental well-being of my kids, then they're not going to share in the experience. I'd rather my kid hate me for a couple years as a teenager for not letting them engage in harmful things than never getting out of their teenage years.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    Oh, they'll going to hate you a lot longer than that.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - MisterBastahrd 5y ago

johnchristopher 5y ago

I think a friend of mine handled it well. He nurtured a trust based relationship with his children, trust was highly valued and it gave his children a lot of free way but he also set up clear boundaries. They could do try do things behind his back, they had full window to do it but trust was so ingrained that I don't recall him ever finding out huge problems. Which doesn't mean they wouldn't plead and beg and try to cajole to get something. At some point he would explain the rationale behind a decision but in the the end when push came to shove if a "no" was spoken it was a final "no". He isn't forced to justify his decisions and it's accepted as is and I think somehow trust plays a part here. Because his children knows that it's not the thing to get (smartphone, movie time, etc.) that is at play but trust (edit_begin) ultimately trust and the only way to get that thing would be by breaking trust (edit_end). They have to keep their parent's trust and parents know they can only get that trust by actually trusting. So, it works out. YMMV.

throw0101a 5y ago

> Further, I'd state actual facts about girls mental health, they will see and be exposed to unhealthy mindsets on this app. Contra: whether they're online or not, conversations about them will take place. And if they're not online then how can they defend themselves, either as an individual or by herding their friends in their defence as well.

turtlebits 5y ago

What happened to the days where you earned the privilege to have/do things? That there are consequence with breaking the rules? Show them how to use it responsibly, the downsides that can come out of it. Start with limits and let them earn the right to have more access. When you kid starts riding a bike you don't let them ride everywhere, you let them stay on the block, and if they understand safety and are being safe, you slowly expand the range they can go.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]