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> Compare this situation to Nigeria Not really comparable. Nigeria is in this case more like China during the opium wars - the western companies are taking awa

by sydd 5y ago

> Compare this situation to Nigeria Not really comparable. Nigeria is in this case more like China during the opium wars - the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats. Just read a bit about how Shell operates there, they have more power than the government.

FredPret 5y ago
This seems to be the fault of the Nigerian government no? Shell is going to push its luck as far as it can with every country
- klyrs 5y ago
  No, bribing foreign governments is illegal, and also immoral. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Ac...
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    Receiving bribes is too, right? The fault may be shared between corrupt countries and companies, but Nigeria is not blameless.
    - mikeblackson 5y ago
      Both are to blame but there is a long history of the "blame free" variety of African leaders getting assassinated or "regime changed" by external forces if they don't cooperate. I wonder how Norway would look if they were constantly under the same threat.
      - ALittleLight 5y ago
        Good question. Why isn't Norway under the same threat?
  - boardwaalk 5y ago
    Shell is not a US company and besides, relying on another country’s laws keep yourself from being exploited isn’t going to get you very far.
    - maeron22 5y ago
      Royal Dutch Shell is headquartered in the Netherlands and registered in the UK, and both countries are part of the OECD Anti-Bribery Convention that criminalizes the bribery of foreign public officials. Even if it were not, I struggle to understand the purpose of your comment. Do you mean to say that it's morally justified for Shell to bribe Nigerian officials? Because it goes unpunished by governments? Or because the citizenry of Nigeria that do not benefit from such bribery are unable to punish such transgressions? Or is it just a nitpicky "gotcha" that adds nothing and isn't even correct?
- lostlogin 5y ago
  This may be an acceptable attitude to some, but it is a shamefully craven way to make money. Have a read of the Wikipedia entry for Shell Nigeria. The death and destruction they are involved in (and which the acknowledgment involvement in) is horrendous. Armed conflict has broken out numerous times and Shell has backed some of it by their own acknowledgment. The ecological and human toll from their polluting is incredible and their own reports show they aren’t attending some spills for significant portions of a year, quite apart from attempting to clean them up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Nigeria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Nigeria
  - FredPret 5y ago
    …no, it’s shamefully craven behaviour by the woeful Nigerian government who couldn’t be bothered to act in their citizens’ best interest in even the most basic ways. Shell is a corporation like any other and will not hold itself to moral standards unless forced to by other entities.
- naruvimama 5y ago
  People wrongly assume that colonisation effectively ended after the 2nd world wars. The truth is it is difficult to wean away governments & companies used to milking the colonies dry to give up so easily. Not to mention the many institutions including religious & media designed to aid this exploitation. As much as the blame might be place on Nigeria, it is not to be ignored that a lot of power and influence is still held by the English speaking elite who are inturn in the grips of the colonial institutions and their masters. In my own country of India, any attempt to decolonise is labeled "right wing nationalist". None of us were happy to wear a tie to school when the temperature goes upto 45 degrees, this colonial brainwashing has to go for the people to become really free.
bilbo0s 5y ago
I was just going to comment that Nigeria's wealth is not so much "distributed within Nigeria" as it is expropriated by the Nigerian élites and given to their Western partners. And bribery is fundamental to that process. That said, it's not only the Westerners screwing over Nigeria. It's also their own rich people screwing them over to get more rich. Nigerian leaders are afraid to go the China route on stamping out corruption because, unlike in China, in Nigeria you can kill the leaders and get new ones. It's a complex problem, and since Nigeria is the African superpower, there is little that anyone can do about it.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  > since Nigeria is the African superpower, there is little that anyone can do about it. There is little anyone in Africa can do. Other countries can do plenty, but after the nation building demonstrated in Iraq and Afghanistan by the western powers, belief in their prowess must surely be non-existent. So much damage has been done with those fiascos.
mistrial9 5y ago
I read the non-fiction book "The Taking of Getty Oil" about a 1970s series of oil company mergers and acquisitions, and the length that the oil negotiators go to, to include and pay (bribe?) the national leaders is obvious over and over.. The USA and its oil market partners like Shell had been bitten by overseas power dynamics multiple times, and they specifically evolved strategy post-British Colonialism .. There is so much reward for the winners in these exchanges, that yes they do try different commercial arrangements to make it stick; and that changes over time. As an American schoolchild we studied Nigeria as a success story and a hopeful future for Americans who wanted a modern stable country in Africa. From what I can tell in passing, the reality is repeatedly short of the lofty goals set long ago. It might be said that there is some responsibility for the sad state of affairs there, with the people who are local and governing, not just the terrible hands of America or Dutch-Royal Shell, right? -- from the wikipedia EN page on Nigeria: Ethnocentrism, tribalism, religious persecution, and prebendalism have plagued Nigerian politics both prior and subsequent to independence in 1960. All major parties have practised vote-rigging and other means of coercion to remain competitive.
ridiculous_leke 5y ago
> the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats Opium wars were a clear blackmail. In this case, corrupt Nigerians are in league with corrupt companies. Not sure if both situations are comparable.
zohch 5y ago
> Nigeria is in this case more like China during the opium wars - the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats. What western company is using what political and economic threat? I think if we are specific about this we can work together to bring accountability to it.
swang75 5y ago
i

by sydd 5y ago

FredPret 5y ago

This seems to be the fault of the Nigerian government no? Shell is going to push its luck as far as it can with every country

klyrs 5y ago
No, bribing foreign governments is illegal, and also immoral. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Ac...
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  Receiving bribes is too, right? The fault may be shared between corrupt countries and companies, but Nigeria is not blameless.
  - mikeblackson 5y ago
    Both are to blame but there is a long history of the "blame free" variety of African leaders getting assassinated or "regime changed" by external forces if they don't cooperate. I wonder how Norway would look if they were constantly under the same threat.
    - ALittleLight 5y ago
      Good question. Why isn't Norway under the same threat?
- boardwaalk 5y ago
  Shell is not a US company and besides, relying on another country’s laws keep yourself from being exploited isn’t going to get you very far.
  - maeron22 5y ago
    Royal Dutch Shell is headquartered in the Netherlands and registered in the UK, and both countries are part of the OECD Anti-Bribery Convention that criminalizes the bribery of foreign public officials. Even if it were not, I struggle to understand the purpose of your comment. Do you mean to say that it's morally justified for Shell to bribe Nigerian officials? Because it goes unpunished by governments? Or because the citizenry of Nigeria that do not benefit from such bribery are unable to punish such transgressions? Or is it just a nitpicky "gotcha" that adds nothing and isn't even correct?
lostlogin 5y ago
This may be an acceptable attitude to some, but it is a shamefully craven way to make money. Have a read of the Wikipedia entry for Shell Nigeria. The death and destruction they are involved in (and which the acknowledgment involvement in) is horrendous. Armed conflict has broken out numerous times and Shell has backed some of it by their own acknowledgment. The ecological and human toll from their polluting is incredible and their own reports show they aren’t attending some spills for significant portions of a year, quite apart from attempting to clean them up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Nigeria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Nigeria
- FredPret 5y ago
  …no, it’s shamefully craven behaviour by the woeful Nigerian government who couldn’t be bothered to act in their citizens’ best interest in even the most basic ways. Shell is a corporation like any other and will not hold itself to moral standards unless forced to by other entities.
naruvimama 5y ago
People wrongly assume that colonisation effectively ended after the 2nd world wars. The truth is it is difficult to wean away governments & companies used to milking the colonies dry to give up so easily. Not to mention the many institutions including religious & media designed to aid this exploitation. As much as the blame might be place on Nigeria, it is not to be ignored that a lot of power and influence is still held by the English speaking elite who are inturn in the grips of the colonial institutions and their masters. In my own country of India, any attempt to decolonise is labeled "right wing nationalist". None of us were happy to wear a tie to school when the temperature goes upto 45 degrees, this colonial brainwashing has to go for the people to become really free.

bilbo0s 5y ago

I was just going to comment that Nigeria's wealth is not so much "distributed within Nigeria" as it is expropriated by the Nigerian élites and given to their Western partners. And bribery is fundamental to that process. That said, it's not only the Westerners screwing over Nigeria. It's also their own rich people screwing them over to get more rich. Nigerian leaders are afraid to go the China route on stamping out corruption because, unlike in China, in Nigeria you can kill the leaders and get new ones. It's a complex problem, and since Nigeria is the African superpower, there is little that anyone can do about it.

lostlogin 5y ago
> since Nigeria is the African superpower, there is little that anyone can do about it. There is little anyone in Africa can do. Other countries can do plenty, but after the nation building demonstrated in Iraq and Afghanistan by the western powers, belief in their prowess must surely be non-existent. So much damage has been done with those fiascos.

mistrial9 5y ago

I read the non-fiction book "The Taking of Getty Oil" about a 1970s series of oil company mergers and acquisitions, and the length that the oil negotiators go to, to include and pay (bribe?) the national leaders is obvious over and over.. The USA and its oil market partners like Shell had been bitten by overseas power dynamics multiple times, and they specifically evolved strategy post-British Colonialism .. There is so much reward for the winners in these exchanges, that yes they do try different commercial arrangements to make it stick; and that changes over time. As an American schoolchild we studied Nigeria as a success story and a hopeful future for Americans who wanted a modern stable country in Africa. From what I can tell in passing, the reality is repeatedly short of the lofty goals set long ago. It might be said that there is some responsibility for the sad state of affairs there, with the people who are local and governing, not just the terrible hands of America or Dutch-Royal Shell, right? -- from the wikipedia EN page on Nigeria: Ethnocentrism, tribalism, religious persecution, and prebendalism have plagued Nigerian politics both prior and subsequent to independence in 1960. All major parties have practised vote-rigging and other means of coercion to remain competitive.

ridiculous_leke 5y ago

> the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats Opium wars were a clear blackmail. In this case, corrupt Nigerians are in league with corrupt companies. Not sure if both situations are comparable.

zohch 5y ago

> Nigeria is in this case more like China during the opium wars - the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats. What western company is using what political and economic threat? I think if we are specific about this we can work together to bring accountability to it.

swang75 5y ago