7 ms·

Norway is perhaps the best run petro state in the history of the world. To avoid Dutch Disease, whereby an economy becomes dependent on a particular commodity,

by ttul 5y ago

Norway is perhaps the best run petro state in the history of the world. To avoid Dutch Disease, whereby an economy becomes dependent on a particular commodity, Norway long ago decided to invest its considerable oil wealth in assets located outside of Norway, building a massive sovereign wealth fund that will provide income to Norwegians long after the oil is all gone. Compare this situation to Nigeria, whose similarly massive oil wealth is corruptly consumed and distributed within Nigeria, leading to massive disparities in wealth and no long term savings to provide for its citizens. Someone has to produce oil and gas. It might as well be the Norwegians.

paulddraper 5y ago
> Someone has to produce oil and gas. It might as well be... Drill baby drill
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kingkawn 5y ago
To accurately compare Norway and Nigeria would require broadening the scope of the history you're providing.
sydd 5y ago
> Compare this situation to Nigeria Not really comparable. Nigeria is in this case more like China during the opium wars - the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats. Just read a bit about how Shell operates there, they have more power than the government.
- FredPret 5y ago
  This seems to be the fault of the Nigerian government no? Shell is going to push its luck as far as it can with every country
  - klyrs 5y ago
    No, bribing foreign governments is illegal, and also immoral. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Ac...
    - ALittleLight 5y ago
      Receiving bribes is too, right? The fault may be shared between corrupt countries and companies, but Nigeria is not blameless.
      - mikeblackson 5y ago
        Both are to blame but there is a long history of the "blame free" variety of African leaders getting assassinated or "regime changed" by external forces if they don't cooperate. I wonder how Norway would look if they were constantly under the same threat.
        ALittleLight 5y ago
        Good question. Why isn't Norway under the same threat?
    - boardwaalk 5y ago
      Shell is not a US company and besides, relying on another country’s laws keep yourself from being exploited isn’t going to get you very far.
      - maeron22 5y ago
        Royal Dutch Shell is headquartered in the Netherlands and registered in the UK, and both countries are part of the OECD Anti-Bribery Convention that criminalizes the bribery of foreign public officials. Even if it were not, I struggle to understand the purpose of your comment. Do you mean to say that it's morally justified for Shell to bribe Nigerian officials? Because it goes unpunished by governments? Or because the citizenry of Nigeria that do not benefit from such bribery are unable to punish such transgressions? Or is it just a nitpicky "gotcha" that adds nothing and isn't even correct?
- bilbo0s 5y ago
  I was just going to comment that Nigeria's wealth is not so much "distributed within Nigeria" as it is expropriated by the Nigerian élites and given to their Western partners. And bribery is fundamental to that process. That said, it's not only the Westerners screwing over Nigeria. It's also their own rich people screwing them over to get more rich. Nigerian leaders are afraid to go the China route on stamping out corruption because, unlike in China, in Nigeria you can kill the leaders and get new ones. It's a complex problem, and since Nigeria is the African superpower, there is little that anyone can do about it.
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    > since Nigeria is the African superpower, there is little that anyone can do about it. There is little anyone in Africa can do. Other countries can do plenty, but after the nation building demonstrated in Iraq and Afghanistan by the western powers, belief in their prowess must surely be non-existent. So much damage has been done with those fiascos.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  I read the non-fiction book "The Taking of Getty Oil" about a 1970s series of oil company mergers and acquisitions, and the length that the oil negotiators go to, to include and pay (bribe?) the national leaders is obvious over and over.. The USA and its oil market partners like Shell had been bitten by overseas power dynamics multiple times, and they specifically evolved strategy post-British Colonialism .. There is so much reward for the winners in these exchanges, that yes they do try different commercial arrangements to make it stick; and that changes over time. As an American schoolchild we studied Nigeria as a success story and a hopeful future for Americans who wanted a modern stable country in Africa. From what I can tell in passing, the reality is repeatedly short of the lofty goals set long ago. It might be said that there is some responsibility for the sad state of affairs there, with the people who are local and governing, not just the terrible hands of America or Dutch-Royal Shell, right? -- from the wikipedia EN page on Nigeria: Ethnocentrism, tribalism, religious persecution, and prebendalism have plagued Nigerian politics both prior and subsequent to independence in 1960. All major parties have practised vote-rigging and other means of coercion to remain competitive.
- ridiculous_leke 5y ago
  > the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats Opium wars were a clear blackmail. In this case, corrupt Nigerians are in league with corrupt companies. Not sure if both situations are comparable.
- zohch 5y ago
  > Nigeria is in this case more like China during the opium wars - the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats. What western company is using what political and economic threat? I think if we are specific about this we can work together to bring accountability to it.
- swang75 5y ago
  i
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
f6v 5y ago
Is per-capita data on oil income available for both Nigeria and Norway?
- karencarits 5y ago
  In Norway for 2021, the oil sector accounts for about 14% of the state's total income (154 billion/milliard NOK) [1]. That's about $3500 per capita For Nigeria 2018, it seems to be about $160 (USD 32.6 billion [2], 201 million people) [1] https://www.norskpetroleum.no/okonomi/statens-inntekter/ https://www.norskpetroleum.no/okonomi/statens-inntekter/ [2] https://eiti.org/es/implementing_country/32 https://eiti.org/es/implementing_country/32
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
karencarits 5y ago
There is a live counter showing the approximate value of the fund: https://www.nbim.no/en/ https://www.nbim.no/en/ "On average, the fund holds 1.4 percent of all of the world’s listed companies." At the moment, NOK 12 121 718 452 052,- or about $1 368 155 330 418,05
elcdodedocle 5y ago
This. If only every other country with oil managed their wealth with such good intentions and for the common good the whole world would most certainly be way far ahead in getting rid of much of our dependency on it. So no, I do not think that selling oil to oil dependent countries is the same as selling opium. They have the same knowledge, means and even more motivation (no freaking oil) to get their shite together and follow the same conversion Norway has been undergoing for almost half a century now. What, do you think their fight is that they just grew a conscience yesterday and decided to replace all their petrodollars with Teslas? They freaking groomed generations of environmentally conscious citizens with all around free access to the best education to become great scientists and engineers to fight off this dependency. In and out of their country. They imported some of our best research scientists which were struggling to make a living out of their work and did not even care about it (At least until they reached their mid 30s and tried to start a family). They now own and live in literally million dollar mansions because their research efforts paid off by a country acknowledging their value. As they should. They were even able to monetize this fight for the environment, making good bucks from it. The fight for our freaking oxygen and clean water. Which shouldn't need any monetary incentive by the way, in case that is not obvious enough. In my mind they are the best kind of society you can get nowadays. I do appreciate the point of view comparing them with freaking vicious enslaving East India trading company and I am sure there is people with that mentality in their numbers but... Bitch, please.

by ttul 5y ago

paulddraper 5y ago

> Someone has to produce oil and gas. It might as well be... Drill baby drill

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

kingkawn 5y ago

To accurately compare Norway and Nigeria would require broadening the scope of the history you're providing.

sydd 5y ago

> Compare this situation to Nigeria Not really comparable. Nigeria is in this case more like China during the opium wars - the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats. Just read a bit about how Shell operates there, they have more power than the government.

FredPret 5y ago
This seems to be the fault of the Nigerian government no? Shell is going to push its luck as far as it can with every country
- klyrs 5y ago
  No, bribing foreign governments is illegal, and also immoral. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Ac...
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    Receiving bribes is too, right? The fault may be shared between corrupt countries and companies, but Nigeria is not blameless.
    - mikeblackson 5y ago
      Both are to blame but there is a long history of the "blame free" variety of African leaders getting assassinated or "regime changed" by external forces if they don't cooperate. I wonder how Norway would look if they were constantly under the same threat.
      - ALittleLight 5y ago
        Good question. Why isn't Norway under the same threat?
  - boardwaalk 5y ago
    Shell is not a US company and besides, relying on another country’s laws keep yourself from being exploited isn’t going to get you very far.
    - maeron22 5y ago
      Royal Dutch Shell is headquartered in the Netherlands and registered in the UK, and both countries are part of the OECD Anti-Bribery Convention that criminalizes the bribery of foreign public officials. Even if it were not, I struggle to understand the purpose of your comment. Do you mean to say that it's morally justified for Shell to bribe Nigerian officials? Because it goes unpunished by governments? Or because the citizenry of Nigeria that do not benefit from such bribery are unable to punish such transgressions? Or is it just a nitpicky "gotcha" that adds nothing and isn't even correct?
bilbo0s 5y ago
I was just going to comment that Nigeria's wealth is not so much "distributed within Nigeria" as it is expropriated by the Nigerian élites and given to their Western partners. And bribery is fundamental to that process. That said, it's not only the Westerners screwing over Nigeria. It's also their own rich people screwing them over to get more rich. Nigerian leaders are afraid to go the China route on stamping out corruption because, unlike in China, in Nigeria you can kill the leaders and get new ones. It's a complex problem, and since Nigeria is the African superpower, there is little that anyone can do about it.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  > since Nigeria is the African superpower, there is little that anyone can do about it. There is little anyone in Africa can do. Other countries can do plenty, but after the nation building demonstrated in Iraq and Afghanistan by the western powers, belief in their prowess must surely be non-existent. So much damage has been done with those fiascos.
mistrial9 5y ago
I read the non-fiction book "The Taking of Getty Oil" about a 1970s series of oil company mergers and acquisitions, and the length that the oil negotiators go to, to include and pay (bribe?) the national leaders is obvious over and over.. The USA and its oil market partners like Shell had been bitten by overseas power dynamics multiple times, and they specifically evolved strategy post-British Colonialism .. There is so much reward for the winners in these exchanges, that yes they do try different commercial arrangements to make it stick; and that changes over time. As an American schoolchild we studied Nigeria as a success story and a hopeful future for Americans who wanted a modern stable country in Africa. From what I can tell in passing, the reality is repeatedly short of the lofty goals set long ago. It might be said that there is some responsibility for the sad state of affairs there, with the people who are local and governing, not just the terrible hands of America or Dutch-Royal Shell, right? -- from the wikipedia EN page on Nigeria: Ethnocentrism, tribalism, religious persecution, and prebendalism have plagued Nigerian politics both prior and subsequent to independence in 1960. All major parties have practised vote-rigging and other means of coercion to remain competitive.
ridiculous_leke 5y ago
> the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats Opium wars were a clear blackmail. In this case, corrupt Nigerians are in league with corrupt companies. Not sure if both situations are comparable.
zohch 5y ago
> Nigeria is in this case more like China during the opium wars - the western companies are taking away their oil from them with bribery, political and economic threats. What western company is using what political and economic threat? I think if we are specific about this we can work together to bring accountability to it.
swang75 5y ago
i

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

f6v 5y ago

Is per-capita data on oil income available for both Nigeria and Norway?

karencarits 5y ago
In Norway for 2021, the oil sector accounts for about 14% of the state's total income (154 billion/milliard NOK) [1]. That's about $3500 per capita For Nigeria 2018, it seems to be about $160 (USD 32.6 billion [2], 201 million people) [1] https://www.norskpetroleum.no/okonomi/statens-inntekter/ https://www.norskpetroleum.no/okonomi/statens-inntekter/ [2] https://eiti.org/es/implementing_country/32 https://eiti.org/es/implementing_country/32
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

karencarits 5y ago

There is a live counter showing the approximate value of the fund: https://www.nbim.no/en/ https://www.nbim.no/en/ "On average, the fund holds 1.4 percent of all of the world’s listed companies." At the moment, NOK 12 121 718 452 052,- or about $1 368 155 330 418,05

elcdodedocle 5y ago

This. If only every other country with oil managed their wealth with such good intentions and for the common good the whole world would most certainly be way far ahead in getting rid of much of our dependency on it. So no, I do not think that selling oil to oil dependent countries is the same as selling opium. They have the same knowledge, means and even more motivation (no freaking oil) to get their shite together and follow the same conversion Norway has been undergoing for almost half a century now. What, do you think their fight is that they just grew a conscience yesterday and decided to replace all their petrodollars with Teslas? They freaking groomed generations of environmentally conscious citizens with all around free access to the best education to become great scientists and engineers to fight off this dependency. In and out of their country. They imported some of our best research scientists which were struggling to make a living out of their work and did not even care about it (At least until they reached their mid 30s and tried to start a family). They now own and live in literally million dollar mansions because their research efforts paid off by a country acknowledging their value. As they should. They were even able to monetize this fight for the environment, making good bucks from it. The fight for our freaking oxygen and clean water. Which shouldn't need any monetary incentive by the way, in case that is not obvious enough. In my mind they are the best kind of society you can get nowadays. I do appreciate the point of view comparing them with freaking vicious enslaving East India trading company and I am sure there is people with that mentality in their numbers but... Bitch, please.