7 ms·

So why not fix that problem? You can't make up 12 lost years beginning at College, putting them to compete with people who are that far ahead will just make eve

So why not fix that problem? You can't make up 12 lost years beginning at College, putting them to compete with people who are that far ahead will just make everyone feel those people are stupid even if it isn't true.

UncleMeat 5y ago
People are trying but facing resistance from the same people who resist it at higher ages. We can’t “just fix that” because any discussion of social equity in education brings out active resistance and even death threats.
- dcow 5y ago
  Isn't it telling that stronger resistance is met in the younger years where the costs are paid by society and not the individuals? I deeply disagree that it’s the same set of individuals. Maybe I’m N=1 but I want to take focus off solving things at the college level and shift to solving things at the community level, explicitly not wholesale rejection of any program that benefits the disparaged. Rather a call to use the limited resources we allocate more effectively. Let’s take the pessimistic stance that society is actively working to perpetually oppress the lower class and under privileged. If so then the fact that e.g. college AA is allowed to slip by but primary school support is opposed with death threats tells me that fixing primary school education is barking up the right tree or poking the hornets nest, what have you. The real threat is actual competition, which starts in the early years. I tend to think is less of some insidious underbelly of society working to keep people oppressed and rather a more simple: good primary schools cost money and resources and we are ultimately selfish people who signal virtue yet balk come time to face reality and fund it. But that doesn't really change the conclusion. Democratize access to good primary school education. Increase funding and dismantle broken school district “gerrymandering” of funds allocation (in many cities rich communities produce rich and desirable primary schools because funds are allocated at the neighborhood level so it just perpetuates inequality). In my opinion the most effective thing a single concerned family can do would be to move to an under privileged neighborhood and send their kids to the public school there. Force yourself to confront reality and work to better the education for all. How many upper middle class virtue signaling anti racist parents (or parents to be) do you know who go gentrify a neighborhood and then send their kids to a charter school? Yeah. That’s literally SF in a nutshell for you.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    > I deeply disagree that it’s the same set of individuals. I can only share my experience, but in my case it is literally the same people. The same organizers and leaders. There are surely people out there who support one and not the other, but I don't observe them acting. When I see the people at the school board meetings, it is the same faces opposing initiatives trying to get more kids on free-and-reduced-lunch into accelerated elementary programs and also opposing initiatives to get more kids on free-and-reduced-lunch into magnet high schools. > How many upper middle class virtue signaling anti racist parents (or parents to be) do you know who go gentrify a neighborhood and then send their kids to a charter school? Lots. But this isn't some proof that the activists are all liars. Again, these don't tend to be the people actually pushing for change at school board meetings.
    - dcow 5y ago
      Sorry I meant entirely the same set of individuals. I have no doubt there’s overlap. In short I agree with you: fuck people who gerrymander school districts because they don’t want their kids to experience diversity. My point has more been that opposing college AA is not synonymous with opposing all instances of programs that aim to help the underprivileged. I just think by the time AA is relevant it is simply often too late. My point about the parents sending their kids to magnet schools is that they’re kinda cancerous turds. They are actively resisting true diversity while at the same time claiming to be woke fucking anti racist saints. Fuck that attitude.
      - UncleMeat 5y ago
        And I’m telling you, at the actual school board meetings it is entirely the same set of people. The people you are complaining about don’t show up on either side.
        dcow 5y ago
        I was making two points and saying I also think clueless woke charter school parents are especially harmful and perhaps the real problem lies somewhere between something AA can address and the actual logistics of how schools receive funding and how much. I’m not necessarily sold that strictly AA at earlier stages really solves for these problematic situations either, though it might help and I do think that if AA is going to solve anything it has a much better shot and bigger impact in the early years, yes. I also suspect attacking the problem differently (at the state or city level not school board level) might be more effective at side skirting the stalemate. Ignore all that. What is the argument from these people that show up across the board to oppose AA programs at younger levels? What are the programs? What is their goal? Just trying to get a profile on the type of people who are frustrating you.

UncleMeat 5y ago

People are trying but facing resistance from the same people who resist it at higher ages. We can’t “just fix that” because any discussion of social equity in education brings out active resistance and even death threats.

dcow 5y ago
Isn't it telling that stronger resistance is met in the younger years where the costs are paid by society and not the individuals? I deeply disagree that it’s the same set of individuals. Maybe I’m N=1 but I want to take focus off solving things at the college level and shift to solving things at the community level, explicitly not wholesale rejection of any program that benefits the disparaged. Rather a call to use the limited resources we allocate more effectively. Let’s take the pessimistic stance that society is actively working to perpetually oppress the lower class and under privileged. If so then the fact that e.g. college AA is allowed to slip by but primary school support is opposed with death threats tells me that fixing primary school education is barking up the right tree or poking the hornets nest, what have you. The real threat is actual competition, which starts in the early years. I tend to think is less of some insidious underbelly of society working to keep people oppressed and rather a more simple: good primary schools cost money and resources and we are ultimately selfish people who signal virtue yet balk come time to face reality and fund it. But that doesn't really change the conclusion. Democratize access to good primary school education. Increase funding and dismantle broken school district “gerrymandering” of funds allocation (in many cities rich communities produce rich and desirable primary schools because funds are allocated at the neighborhood level so it just perpetuates inequality). In my opinion the most effective thing a single concerned family can do would be to move to an under privileged neighborhood and send their kids to the public school there. Force yourself to confront reality and work to better the education for all. How many upper middle class virtue signaling anti racist parents (or parents to be) do you know who go gentrify a neighborhood and then send their kids to a charter school? Yeah. That’s literally SF in a nutshell for you.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  > I deeply disagree that it’s the same set of individuals. I can only share my experience, but in my case it is literally the same people. The same organizers and leaders. There are surely people out there who support one and not the other, but I don't observe them acting. When I see the people at the school board meetings, it is the same faces opposing initiatives trying to get more kids on free-and-reduced-lunch into accelerated elementary programs and also opposing initiatives to get more kids on free-and-reduced-lunch into magnet high schools. > How many upper middle class virtue signaling anti racist parents (or parents to be) do you know who go gentrify a neighborhood and then send their kids to a charter school? Lots. But this isn't some proof that the activists are all liars. Again, these don't tend to be the people actually pushing for change at school board meetings.
  - dcow 5y ago
    Sorry I meant entirely the same set of individuals. I have no doubt there’s overlap. In short I agree with you: fuck people who gerrymander school districts because they don’t want their kids to experience diversity. My point has more been that opposing college AA is not synonymous with opposing all instances of programs that aim to help the underprivileged. I just think by the time AA is relevant it is simply often too late. My point about the parents sending their kids to magnet schools is that they’re kinda cancerous turds. They are actively resisting true diversity while at the same time claiming to be woke fucking anti racist saints. Fuck that attitude.
    - UncleMeat 5y ago
      And I’m telling you, at the actual school board meetings it is entirely the same set of people. The people you are complaining about don’t show up on either side.
      - dcow 5y ago
        I was making two points and saying I also think clueless woke charter school parents are especially harmful and perhaps the real problem lies somewhere between something AA can address and the actual logistics of how schools receive funding and how much. I’m not necessarily sold that strictly AA at earlier stages really solves for these problematic situations either, though it might help and I do think that if AA is going to solve anything it has a much better shot and bigger impact in the early years, yes. I also suspect attacking the problem differently (at the state or city level not school board level) might be more effective at side skirting the stalemate. Ignore all that. What is the argument from these people that show up across the board to oppose AA programs at younger levels? What are the programs? What is their goal? Just trying to get a profile on the type of people who are frustrating you.