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> But, as shown by the coronavirus, the costs of stopping (or, more realistically, delaying) them are huge If we all wore $2 N95-equivalent masks, spread out 6

> But, as shown by the coronavirus, the costs of stopping (or, more realistically, delaying) them are huge If we all wore $2 N95-equivalent masks, spread out 6 feet whenever convenient, did outside whatever can be done outside, and received a vaccine at (roughly) the same time, COVID19 would be gone. The costs are huge because we made them huge. We ignore COVID19 when case counts are low, giving it a chance to mutate and spread. We take extreme measures when hospitals start filling up, shutting down schools and businesses. See Korea, China, Taiwan, etc. for examples of reasonable-cost ways to control COVID19.

roenxi 5y ago
Well, yeah. Pretty much all problems humans face are caused by humans. And death, which is still forced on us by the laws of entropy. You'll find that the systems that can force the unwilling to buy $2 masks, spread out 6 feet and get vaccinated are worse than the disease. If you recognise that the government can compel people to be healthy it opens up some terrifying cans of worms.
- murgindrag 5y ago
  I think it depends on how it's done. I'd like to see this implemented with roughly the same systems which make me wear a bicycle helmet, a seatbelt, or have turn signals, which I don't find so scary. In these systems, you have a law. You have law enforcement. Law enforcement doesn't catch everyone, and doesn't have particularly aggressive police powers. I'm fearful it will be implemented with the same systems which make us register guns and have background checks, track bank transfers over $10,000, check IDs when buying cold medicine, or track us as we travel. In these systems, you have law enforcement. Enforcement is given tools to track and monitor what people do just in case someone might be a criminal.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    > I'd like to see this implemented with roughly the same systems which make me wear a bicycle helmet, a seatbelt, or have turn signals, which I don't find so scary. There is a big difference between those and mandatory vaccinations. If you're going to vaccinate everyone then it isn't like people can choose to opt out. Plus the logistical issues of how to vaccinate foreigners. In Australia, Sydney is currently in lockdown because it turns out that masks & social distancing can't be enforced enough to contain a COVID outbreak.
    - murgindrag 5y ago
      I'm not quite sure I see the difference. You pass a law: - Requiring vaccinations, or a $800 fine - Permitting private venues to verify vaccination status by looking at vaccine cards (e.g. employers, concerts, etc.) - Make it a crime to forge vaccine cards - International travel already has yellow vaccine books, and it's well-established to check vaccines upon entry to/from high-risk countries You don't implement any infrastructure to track vaccinations. I show my vaccine card when I enter a concert, same as I do when ordering alcohol. No one records anything. The bar for intentionally breaking laws is much higher than not getting a vaccine. I think most people will follow laws voluntarily. Most of the ones who don't follow the law won't get caught, but a few will.
      - roenxi 5y ago
        > I'm not quite sure I see the difference. If you think it is reasonable to force people to make medical decisions when it is for the greater good, do you have an argument against mandatory sterilisation? Because I don't see an easy way to be pro- forced vaccinations and anti- forced sterlisation. The basic argument is if the government can do this with only 1-3 years debate (when previously vaccines takes 4+ years to evaluate) then it starts opening the door to some really scary stuff getting rushed through. I'm more interested now in what you think is holding the door shut. > I show my vaccine card when I enter ... No one records anything. The vaccine card is what people are talking about when the say 'record'.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  It's not about compelling others to be healthy, it's about preventing you from infecting others.

roenxi 5y ago

Well, yeah. Pretty much all problems humans face are caused by humans. And death, which is still forced on us by the laws of entropy. You'll find that the systems that can force the unwilling to buy $2 masks, spread out 6 feet and get vaccinated are worse than the disease. If you recognise that the government can compel people to be healthy it opens up some terrifying cans of worms.

murgindrag 5y ago
I think it depends on how it's done. I'd like to see this implemented with roughly the same systems which make me wear a bicycle helmet, a seatbelt, or have turn signals, which I don't find so scary. In these systems, you have a law. You have law enforcement. Law enforcement doesn't catch everyone, and doesn't have particularly aggressive police powers. I'm fearful it will be implemented with the same systems which make us register guns and have background checks, track bank transfers over $10,000, check IDs when buying cold medicine, or track us as we travel. In these systems, you have law enforcement. Enforcement is given tools to track and monitor what people do just in case someone might be a criminal.
- roenxi 5y ago
  > I'd like to see this implemented with roughly the same systems which make me wear a bicycle helmet, a seatbelt, or have turn signals, which I don't find so scary. There is a big difference between those and mandatory vaccinations. If you're going to vaccinate everyone then it isn't like people can choose to opt out. Plus the logistical issues of how to vaccinate foreigners. In Australia, Sydney is currently in lockdown because it turns out that masks & social distancing can't be enforced enough to contain a COVID outbreak.
  - murgindrag 5y ago
    I'm not quite sure I see the difference. You pass a law: - Requiring vaccinations, or a $800 fine - Permitting private venues to verify vaccination status by looking at vaccine cards (e.g. employers, concerts, etc.) - Make it a crime to forge vaccine cards - International travel already has yellow vaccine books, and it's well-established to check vaccines upon entry to/from high-risk countries You don't implement any infrastructure to track vaccinations. I show my vaccine card when I enter a concert, same as I do when ordering alcohol. No one records anything. The bar for intentionally breaking laws is much higher than not getting a vaccine. I think most people will follow laws voluntarily. Most of the ones who don't follow the law won't get caught, but a few will.
    - roenxi 5y ago
      > I'm not quite sure I see the difference. If you think it is reasonable to force people to make medical decisions when it is for the greater good, do you have an argument against mandatory sterilisation? Because I don't see an easy way to be pro- forced vaccinations and anti- forced sterlisation. The basic argument is if the government can do this with only 1-3 years debate (when previously vaccines takes 4+ years to evaluate) then it starts opening the door to some really scary stuff getting rushed through. I'm more interested now in what you think is holding the door shut. > I show my vaccine card when I enter ... No one records anything. The vaccine card is what people are talking about when the say 'record'.
sudosysgen 5y ago
It's not about compelling others to be healthy, it's about preventing you from infecting others.