4 ms·

Also those symptoms look very similar to stress, anxiety and depression. Which I think are to be expected after contracting a pandemic level virus and being for

Also those symptoms look very similar to stress, anxiety and depression. Which I think are to be expected after contracting a pandemic level virus and being forced to isolate. I would like to see results after treating or controlling for those conditions.

adflux 5y ago
I agree. I suspect many "long covid" cases are probably not caused by covid, but by the lockdown and psychological impact of this phenomenon. People complaining of fatigue or having difficulty concentrating or having brain fog are in some studies already counted as suffering from long covid. No causual relationship required.
- CraigJPerry 5y ago
  That suspicion goes against what the people who are dealing with this every day are saying. What makes you suspect this? A friend of mine is a doctor and we were chatting about long covid 2 days ago, his description of it seemed pretty cut and dried to me - e.g. a swimmer here in Glasgow with hopes of getting to the 2024 olympics is currently unable to train due to breathing issues post-covid. They’re supposed to be fully immersed in training right now but can’t since covid in December 2020.
  - murgindrag 5y ago
    One person I know is suffering from serious balance problems post-COVID. It's just not consistent with the "It's all in their minds theory," or "it's the same as stress from isolation" theory. There's clearly something neurological going on, and we don't understand it yet.
    - treeman79 5y ago
      In my case it was a mix of information, increased cranial pressure, and minor clots. Was a nightmare getting those under control but my symptoms eased up. Then I got covid and it all started up again. Took months to get back to a baseline, but symptoms were identical, aside from loss of smell.
  - adflux 5y ago
    Have you read the diagnosis criteria and studies regarding long covid? I have read a few, and I see that many are using the widest net possible to define long covid, counting people who self diagnose symptoms such as brain fog and having trouble concentrating. Ofcourse long covid is real. I am just a bit skeptical about the diagnosis criteria.
    - toss1 5y ago
      That conclusion raises skepticism based on the appearance of motivated reasoning and confirmation bias, but there's insufficient data for a firm conclusion.
    - rualca 5y ago
      > Have you read the diagnosis criteria and studies regarding long covid? I have read a few, and I see that many are using the widest net possible to define long covid, (...) I really don't understand what point you tried to make. The whole point of scientific papers is to gather and document findings in a way to be subjected to critical analysis and serve as food for thought. From your own example, which unfortunately is completely unsubstantiated, documenting symptoms reported by patients is a good starting point to form hypothesis to be verified or rejected.
treeman79 5y ago
I have an autoimmune decease and factor 5. Very similar symptoms as long term covid. Lots of inflammation, brain fog, cognitive defects. I spent years being dismissed as depressed Or having anxiety. When I finally was diagnosed and started treating condition with medications I could handle my cognitive problems and depression lifted. Support groups for autoimmune conditions are full of people who routinely are dismissed by doctors.
- ImaCake 5y ago
  A few years ago I suffered from an autoimmune issue for about 3 months. It took most of that time just to convince a doctor to give me meloxicam, which is just strong panadol/aspirin really. Having a chronic fever for a few months really made it hard to do anything more substantial than play video games. I don't know how we teach general practitioners, but we are doing something horribly wrong. A lot of long covid people must be finding this out too, and it is just super sad.
  - dmix 5y ago
    A big part is people are typically afraid, or don’t have the opportunity, to get a second opinion. One of my biggest lessons early in life was that not all doctors are the same (by a long shot). This is why it’s so important to see specialists related to your condition. And ultimately you’re going to be most responsible for getting proper care as often only you know what you’re experiencing. Medicine and pathology are far to wide of subjects for generalists to operate efficiently across every field and niche. Which is why specialization is so important and connecting the patients to the right specialists. There’s a lot of analogies to technology, where people tend to expect the experts to do and know everything and completely defer to them. I think we all have experienced this with our parents or people who didn’t grow up with computers. When ultimately the individual is always going to be a huge part of the puzzle and must accept that fact.
  - dTal 5y ago
    >I don't know how we teach general practitioners We send them to a school which emphasizes cramming vast amounts of established knowledge into their heads, at the expense of critical thinking skills, social skills, and for that matter sleep. In a world where doctors use Google and WebMD the same as everyone else (because of course they do, no one retains an encyclopaedic knowledge of every medical condition), it's basically a hazing ritual.
IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago
If COVID causes stress, anxiety, and depression, why wouldn’t that count as a legitimate effect of the disease?

adflux 5y ago

I agree. I suspect many "long covid" cases are probably not caused by covid, but by the lockdown and psychological impact of this phenomenon. People complaining of fatigue or having difficulty concentrating or having brain fog are in some studies already counted as suffering from long covid. No causual relationship required.

CraigJPerry 5y ago
That suspicion goes against what the people who are dealing with this every day are saying. What makes you suspect this? A friend of mine is a doctor and we were chatting about long covid 2 days ago, his description of it seemed pretty cut and dried to me - e.g. a swimmer here in Glasgow with hopes of getting to the 2024 olympics is currently unable to train due to breathing issues post-covid. They’re supposed to be fully immersed in training right now but can’t since covid in December 2020.
- murgindrag 5y ago
  One person I know is suffering from serious balance problems post-COVID. It's just not consistent with the "It's all in their minds theory," or "it's the same as stress from isolation" theory. There's clearly something neurological going on, and we don't understand it yet.
  - treeman79 5y ago
    In my case it was a mix of information, increased cranial pressure, and minor clots. Was a nightmare getting those under control but my symptoms eased up. Then I got covid and it all started up again. Took months to get back to a baseline, but symptoms were identical, aside from loss of smell.
- adflux 5y ago
  Have you read the diagnosis criteria and studies regarding long covid? I have read a few, and I see that many are using the widest net possible to define long covid, counting people who self diagnose symptoms such as brain fog and having trouble concentrating. Ofcourse long covid is real. I am just a bit skeptical about the diagnosis criteria.
  - toss1 5y ago
    That conclusion raises skepticism based on the appearance of motivated reasoning and confirmation bias, but there's insufficient data for a firm conclusion.
  - rualca 5y ago
    > Have you read the diagnosis criteria and studies regarding long covid? I have read a few, and I see that many are using the widest net possible to define long covid, (...) I really don't understand what point you tried to make. The whole point of scientific papers is to gather and document findings in a way to be subjected to critical analysis and serve as food for thought. From your own example, which unfortunately is completely unsubstantiated, documenting symptoms reported by patients is a good starting point to form hypothesis to be verified or rejected.

treeman79 5y ago

I have an autoimmune decease and factor 5. Very similar symptoms as long term covid. Lots of inflammation, brain fog, cognitive defects. I spent years being dismissed as depressed Or having anxiety. When I finally was diagnosed and started treating condition with medications I could handle my cognitive problems and depression lifted. Support groups for autoimmune conditions are full of people who routinely are dismissed by doctors.

ImaCake 5y ago
A few years ago I suffered from an autoimmune issue for about 3 months. It took most of that time just to convince a doctor to give me meloxicam, which is just strong panadol/aspirin really. Having a chronic fever for a few months really made it hard to do anything more substantial than play video games. I don't know how we teach general practitioners, but we are doing something horribly wrong. A lot of long covid people must be finding this out too, and it is just super sad.
- dmix 5y ago
  A big part is people are typically afraid, or don’t have the opportunity, to get a second opinion. One of my biggest lessons early in life was that not all doctors are the same (by a long shot). This is why it’s so important to see specialists related to your condition. And ultimately you’re going to be most responsible for getting proper care as often only you know what you’re experiencing. Medicine and pathology are far to wide of subjects for generalists to operate efficiently across every field and niche. Which is why specialization is so important and connecting the patients to the right specialists. There’s a lot of analogies to technology, where people tend to expect the experts to do and know everything and completely defer to them. I think we all have experienced this with our parents or people who didn’t grow up with computers. When ultimately the individual is always going to be a huge part of the puzzle and must accept that fact.
- dTal 5y ago
  >I don't know how we teach general practitioners We send them to a school which emphasizes cramming vast amounts of established knowledge into their heads, at the expense of critical thinking skills, social skills, and for that matter sleep. In a world where doctors use Google and WebMD the same as everyone else (because of course they do, no one retains an encyclopaedic knowledge of every medical condition), it's basically a hazing ritual.

IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago

If COVID causes stress, anxiety, and depression, why wouldn’t that count as a legitimate effect of the disease?