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Ford first invested $500 million in Rivian in 2019. At the time they also announced that they'll be using Rivian's skateboard platform for Ford's cars. Later o

by kjksf 5y ago

Ford first invested $500 million in Rivian in 2019. At the time they also announced that they'll be using Rivian's skateboard platform for Ford's cars. Later on that has been scrapped. So why do they continue investing? I don't really know but it might be an option for future collaboration / licensing Rivian's IP. Rivian has been working on EV technology since 2009. Ford... not so much. I think the reason you see so many EV announcements from Ford (and GM and Honda and Mercedes and...) in 2021 is because they all suddenly realized they need to press a panic button. However, you don't just build battery / electric drive train expertise overnight so Ford might be keeping their options open for collaborating with Rivian in the future. https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2019/04/24/rivian-500-million-investment-ford.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2019...

07d046 5y ago
> I think the reason you see so many EV announcements from Ford (and GM and Honda and Mercedes and...) in 2021 is because they all suddenly realized they need to press a panic button. Alternatively, maybe because the traditional manufacturers timed the critical point where it made economic sense to focus on electric cars in the same way?
- SmellTheGlove 5y ago
  Also, if Ford hit a panic button and produced the F150 Lightning, keep pressing that button, it's working.
- marvin 5y ago
  They're skating towards where the puck is, not where the puck will be. I believe it's impossible to win this kind of technological race without appearing to be early. So my prediction is most of them will fail. You might be correct if the "critical point" arriving meant that established manufacturers could just buy the cost-and-performance-critical parts of EV manufacturing in volume, at low cost, from their suppliers as they're used to. But they can't, because the advancements that make this the right time are not sold on the open market. Getting there requires at least five years of R&D and billions invested, and in that time their competitors will have advanced further. This outcome isn't obvious yet, so I might still be wrong, but that's where my money would be. I suppose that purchasing one of the startups working on this is a more promising option, but I'm not at all convinced.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    > I believe it's impossible to win this kind of technological race without appearing to be early. So my prediction is most of them will fail. Tesla used to be the biggest BEV manufacturer in Europe. But now in 2021 Tesla is number 3: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 It's not as though the world's biggest car companies are going to forget how to make cars.
    - simondotau 5y ago
      This is largely because Tesla is supply constrained and they’ve chosen to prioritise fulfilling of orders in the USA which are more profitable. When Berlin Model Y production kicks off at the end of the year, the story might well change. At the end of the day, regional sales numbers are irrelevant. The number that matters is global sales.
      - clouddrover 5y ago
        So you're saying Volkswagen sells more because they build more cars? Like Volkswagen's got expertise in car manufacturing or something? Maybe that's why they're the second biggest car manufacturer globally.
        marvin 5y ago
        Does Volkswagen currently produce and sell more (pure) electric cars than Tesla? As GP said, regional sales numbers are irrelevant. The established manufacturers obviously know how to make cars, but are behind on battery cells, packs, drivetrains and software. That VW currently out-delivers Tesla in some markets is not a rebuttal. If they’re actually out-producing and outselling them globally, that would be an interesting development.
        clouddrover 5y ago
        > That VW currently out-delivers Tesla in some markets is not a rebuttal They've taken over the biggest EV market from Tesla. That hardly fits the narrative of it being "impossible to win this kind of technological race". Look at the trend: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellersCharts/ALL/Groups/Line-Cumulative/All-time-by-Quarters https://eu-evs.com/bestSellersCharts/ALL/Groups/Line-Cumulat... Year by year they will continue transitioning to EVs: https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/volkswagen-group-more-than-doubles-deliveries-of-all-electric-vehicles-in-first-half-year-7328 https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/volksw... The case that the big car companies won't remain big car companies is flimsy at best. It's a product of wishful thinking more than practical realities.
elihu 5y ago
It could be the other way around; that Ford sees them as a potential customer for the various non-EV-specific parts that go into cars, and that a start-up might not have the infrastructure to make themselves. Or they could collaborate on charging standards and access to networks of fast-chargers.
- tenuousemphasis 5y ago
  Does Ford make many of their own parts? I was under the impression that they outsourced most of that to third parties and mostly did assembly.
  - thenewwazoo 5y ago
    Ford make the parts that are unique to Ford vehicles, like chassis and engines. Things like seats and brakes, which are common to all vehicles, are bought.
nindalf 5y ago
> Rivian has been working on EV technology since 2009. Ford... not so much. You say this like Ford is floundering with no clue. But that’s not the case. They have 100k reservations for the F-150 Lightning, which by all accounts is pretty impressive (https://youtu.be/J2npVg9ONFo https://youtu.be/J2npVg9ONFo). If you think for some reason that the F-150 Lightning that ships won’t be as impressive, or it’ll be more expensive or that people who reserved it won’t buy it … then please share why you think so. But otherwise a knee jerk “old car manufacturer doesn’t know what they’re doing” doesn’t appear to fit the facts.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- JMill 5y ago
  I think the parent commenter may have been referring to how Ford was floundering with no apparent clue. In 2019, there was little public indication of the legacy automobile manufacturers being serious about EVs. Meanwhile, Tesla had been investing in battery manufacturing technology for years. It takes a long time to thoughtfully design a new chassis, electrified or not. It also takes a long time to build up manufacturing capacity, especially when they key ingredients such as battery cells were not integral to the chassis of the past. The F-150 Lightning has clearly evoked interest. It could have come a lot sooner. But perhaps Ford can be an effective fast follower, especially if it figures out how to address sticky points like 1) managing dealer relationships and 2) writing software. These issues are business/cultural challenges, so may require more care to address than engineering problems, which Ford has a history (a century!) solving effectively.
  - treis 5y ago
    >. In 2019, there was little public indication of the legacy automobile manufacturers being serious about EVs. That's just not true at all. Nissan has been selling the leaf for a decade, for starters. VW had the e-golf in 2017. Everyone else has been dabbling to some extent or another. The problem thus far is that electric vehicles have not been profitable to manufacturer.
newaccount2021 5y ago
The automakers can access cheap loans and even bailouts...so realistically, they are investing YOUR money with one level of indirection
bozhark 5y ago
The commercial platform, it the f150
throwtheacctawy 5y ago
Factoid: Lincoln (Ford) had a deal (now cancelled) for Rivian to manufacture their EV's. If Rivian is successful, I believe Ford will acquire them. I am still surprised how slow Rivian has been, and how much money they have raised. We've been hearing about these R1T and R1S for a decade now. I am convinced Rivian is struggling internally. Despite their long...long...time to market; Rivian has yet to reveal details like how fast the vehicles charge, how the infotainment system works, etc. Despite the R1T launch being this month (until last week, when it was delayed again); the EV charging locations were non-existent. Rivian has a map with rough estimations of where they want to place the charging infrastructure. Rivian will have 3-4 charging locations in a geographic area that has very little tourism and existing charging infrastructure. Then, in the same state, Rivian will have zero charging stations in an entire region. If the R1T is truly just weeks away from reaching a customer; it would seem like some of the basics (infotainment and charging) would have information out. The fact that all of this is missing, makes me believe the R1T is 12mo+ from reaching a customer, and the R1S could be as far out as 2yrs+ from reaching a customer.

by kjksf 5y ago

07d046 5y ago

> I think the reason you see so many EV announcements from Ford (and GM and Honda and Mercedes and...) in 2021 is because they all suddenly realized they need to press a panic button. Alternatively, maybe because the traditional manufacturers timed the critical point where it made economic sense to focus on electric cars in the same way?

SmellTheGlove 5y ago
Also, if Ford hit a panic button and produced the F150 Lightning, keep pressing that button, it's working.
marvin 5y ago
They're skating towards where the puck is, not where the puck will be. I believe it's impossible to win this kind of technological race without appearing to be early. So my prediction is most of them will fail. You might be correct if the "critical point" arriving meant that established manufacturers could just buy the cost-and-performance-critical parts of EV manufacturing in volume, at low cost, from their suppliers as they're used to. But they can't, because the advancements that make this the right time are not sold on the open market. Getting there requires at least five years of R&D and billions invested, and in that time their competitors will have advanced further. This outcome isn't obvious yet, so I might still be wrong, but that's where my money would be. I suppose that purchasing one of the startups working on this is a more promising option, but I'm not at all convinced.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > I believe it's impossible to win this kind of technological race without appearing to be early. So my prediction is most of them will fail. Tesla used to be the biggest BEV manufacturer in Europe. But now in 2021 Tesla is number 3: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 It's not as though the world's biggest car companies are going to forget how to make cars.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    This is largely because Tesla is supply constrained and they’ve chosen to prioritise fulfilling of orders in the USA which are more profitable. When Berlin Model Y production kicks off at the end of the year, the story might well change. At the end of the day, regional sales numbers are irrelevant. The number that matters is global sales.
    - clouddrover 5y ago
      So you're saying Volkswagen sells more because they build more cars? Like Volkswagen's got expertise in car manufacturing or something? Maybe that's why they're the second biggest car manufacturer globally.
      - marvin 5y ago
        Does Volkswagen currently produce and sell more (pure) electric cars than Tesla? As GP said, regional sales numbers are irrelevant. The established manufacturers obviously know how to make cars, but are behind on battery cells, packs, drivetrains and software. That VW currently out-delivers Tesla in some markets is not a rebuttal. If they’re actually out-producing and outselling them globally, that would be an interesting development.
        clouddrover 5y ago
        > That VW currently out-delivers Tesla in some markets is not a rebuttal They've taken over the biggest EV market from Tesla. That hardly fits the narrative of it being "impossible to win this kind of technological race". Look at the trend: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellersCharts/ALL/Groups/Line-Cumulative/All-time-by-Quarters https://eu-evs.com/bestSellersCharts/ALL/Groups/Line-Cumulat... Year by year they will continue transitioning to EVs: https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/volkswagen-group-more-than-doubles-deliveries-of-all-electric-vehicles-in-first-half-year-7328 https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/volksw... The case that the big car companies won't remain big car companies is flimsy at best. It's a product of wishful thinking more than practical realities.

elihu 5y ago

It could be the other way around; that Ford sees them as a potential customer for the various non-EV-specific parts that go into cars, and that a start-up might not have the infrastructure to make themselves. Or they could collaborate on charging standards and access to networks of fast-chargers.

tenuousemphasis 5y ago
Does Ford make many of their own parts? I was under the impression that they outsourced most of that to third parties and mostly did assembly.
- thenewwazoo 5y ago
  Ford make the parts that are unique to Ford vehicles, like chassis and engines. Things like seats and brakes, which are common to all vehicles, are bought.

nindalf 5y ago

> Rivian has been working on EV technology since 2009. Ford... not so much. You say this like Ford is floundering with no clue. But that’s not the case. They have 100k reservations for the F-150 Lightning, which by all accounts is pretty impressive (https://youtu.be/J2npVg9ONFo https://youtu.be/J2npVg9ONFo). If you think for some reason that the F-150 Lightning that ships won’t be as impressive, or it’ll be more expensive or that people who reserved it won’t buy it … then please share why you think so. But otherwise a knee jerk “old car manufacturer doesn’t know what they’re doing” doesn’t appear to fit the facts.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
JMill 5y ago
I think the parent commenter may have been referring to how Ford was floundering with no apparent clue. In 2019, there was little public indication of the legacy automobile manufacturers being serious about EVs. Meanwhile, Tesla had been investing in battery manufacturing technology for years. It takes a long time to thoughtfully design a new chassis, electrified or not. It also takes a long time to build up manufacturing capacity, especially when they key ingredients such as battery cells were not integral to the chassis of the past. The F-150 Lightning has clearly evoked interest. It could have come a lot sooner. But perhaps Ford can be an effective fast follower, especially if it figures out how to address sticky points like 1) managing dealer relationships and 2) writing software. These issues are business/cultural challenges, so may require more care to address than engineering problems, which Ford has a history (a century!) solving effectively.
- treis 5y ago
  >. In 2019, there was little public indication of the legacy automobile manufacturers being serious about EVs. That's just not true at all. Nissan has been selling the leaf for a decade, for starters. VW had the e-golf in 2017. Everyone else has been dabbling to some extent or another. The problem thus far is that electric vehicles have not been profitable to manufacturer.

newaccount2021 5y ago

The automakers can access cheap loans and even bailouts...so realistically, they are investing YOUR money with one level of indirection

bozhark 5y ago

The commercial platform, it the f150

throwtheacctawy 5y ago

Factoid: Lincoln (Ford) had a deal (now cancelled) for Rivian to manufacture their EV's. If Rivian is successful, I believe Ford will acquire them. I am still surprised how slow Rivian has been, and how much money they have raised. We've been hearing about these R1T and R1S for a decade now. I am convinced Rivian is struggling internally. Despite their long...long...time to market; Rivian has yet to reveal details like how fast the vehicles charge, how the infotainment system works, etc. Despite the R1T launch being this month (until last week, when it was delayed again); the EV charging locations were non-existent. Rivian has a map with rough estimations of where they want to place the charging infrastructure. Rivian will have 3-4 charging locations in a geographic area that has very little tourism and existing charging infrastructure. Then, in the same state, Rivian will have zero charging stations in an entire region. If the R1T is truly just weeks away from reaching a customer; it would seem like some of the basics (infotainment and charging) would have information out. The fact that all of this is missing, makes me believe the R1T is 12mo+ from reaching a customer, and the R1S could be as far out as 2yrs+ from reaching a customer.