5 ms·

The thing that gets me is that in order to get one of these dandy IDs with the holograms, micro lettering, and laser cutting is a birth certificate and an elect

The thing that gets me is that in order to get one of these dandy IDs with the holograms, micro lettering, and laser cutting is a birth certificate and an electric bill. My birth certificate is hand typed on an IBM Selectric typewriter on common security paper and the only real security feature is the embossed emblem of the rural county of the rural state I was born - and unless you have a sample to compare with you really can’t validate. Most utility bills are printed on cheap lightweight paper by a common laser printer and the only security feature might be a bit of color or a slightly non-standard size. Once you have a drivers license you are only a fee payment away from a passport. Granted I might get a lot more scrutiny if I walk into the DMV wearing an El Tri t-shirt and speaking with an accent but barring that it seems a very low bar to turn a crappy hand-typed 50s birth certificate into a modern secure ID.

catillac 5y ago
Surely one could not just make up a totally fake birth certificate from nothing and have any licensing office take that seriously? Surely there are additional electronic records or other security features?
- djrogers 5y ago
  No, one could not do that. You’d need at least a real name with a valid SSN who’s birthplace and DOB matches what you’re trying to get issued. Definitely possible, but more work than just completely faking up a couple of papers.
- bombcar 5y ago
  Yeah it’s cross-referenced if possible. The hot shit is to use a baptismal record instead (accepted most anywhere but usually found only for older people).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- zxcvbn4038 5y ago
  I know you can purchase books of identity documents from various locations and years and those give details of the various security features that were present and material samples to compare with but I’ve never encountered anyone using them. Usually it’s just making sure I have all the documents, compare with my application, then go stand in line for a picture. Though when I applied for the trusted traveler program they did keep my documents for a few weeks so they might have been doing that sort of verification.
  - jonathanlydall 5y ago
    When I did Customer Service at Blizzard EU many years ago they had a product with a catalogue of samples of different passports and identity documents which we could use to compare with the image we had received from someone claiming ownership of an account. It was most amusing when the document you were trying to validate had the exact same person’s photograph as in the sample document.
- tedmiston 5y ago
  I'm sure an electronic database of birth certificates exists somewhere to handle the case where an original is lost. But I do not think the BMV / DMV does anything to validate your birth certificate itself electronically.
djrogers 5y ago
For the states I’m familiar with, you’d also need a Social Security Number that matched the birth certificate, and a few also require a thumbprint. If you attempted to get an ID card for Joe Smith with SSN 123-45-6789, but he already has one, your photo also wouldn’t match the existing digital photo on record. You would likely be able to get an ID card issued in someone else’s name, but it’s not as easy as typing up a fake birth certificate and electric bill.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  I’ve never seen a birth certificate with a social security number. If you’ve ever had a child, you’ll know that you don’t apply for a SSN until long after birth and the issuance of a birth certificate. Source: three different states, personal experience
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    You are over-interpreting. The SSN has a name attached to it. That has to match the birth certificate (probably with some rules about other records for name changes and the like).
Igelau 5y ago
I forget what it was my wife and I were applying for, but we had to produce a "certified copy" of our marriage license. We were just like "yeah, whatever" and toted along the real thing. This was shot down because they needed a certified copy, which turned out to be a completely bland and unremarkable printout that could have come from anywhere.
- zxcvbn4038 5y ago
  That’s how I feel every time I get asked for a utility bill as proof of anything. Security theater at its finest.
xmprt 5y ago
I suppose attempting that would get you a much higher quality fake however now your fake as well as your address is recorded in the system and you're screwed if they ever catch on. Use someone else's address and it's a federal crime if you go through their mail. I also think there's probably some higher level of identity fraud for messing with government officials as opposed to just messing with a bouncer at a bar.
siva7 5y ago
in most countries faking especially a birth cert alongside other official ID documents is a serious criminal offense. certainly not worth it for getting beer.
- isatty 5y ago
  People who fake birth certs aren't doing it for the beer.
TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
Do they actually just go by what it says on the paper, or do they contact the organisation which issued it and check their records?
- tedmiston 5y ago
  In my state, they just look at the birth certificate and utility bill for a minute or less. However, they may make a copy of the utility bill to keep on file, but my memory is fuzzy about that part.
tinus_hn 5y ago
So how do you prove you actually passed the exam, if all you need for a drivers license is a birth certificate and a utility bill?
- tedmiston 5y ago
  That is for the renewal. I suspect this varies by state, and I can't speak for other states, but in Ohio the initial driver license also requires: a knowledge test; vision screening; and a driving skills test consisting of two parts: (1) maneuverability, (2) on road. Surprisingly I don't believe there is any updated vision test requirement on renewals once you have a valid license.
  - nerdponx 5y ago
    If you already know how to drive, those will slow you down but won't stop you from actually getting the fake ID.
avereveard 5y ago
Here in good old Europe you either produce a valid ID to obtain one (renewals) or you need testimony of two person with valid ID (i.e. theft) or two parents (traditional birth) or one parent ID and a certificate of birth, but the one signed by the hospital, not the birth registration certificate from the government (single parent birth) or a valid visa and a valid foreign ID (immigration) Seems to cover about all cases and pin your identity to previously verified identities recursively

catillac 5y ago

Surely one could not just make up a totally fake birth certificate from nothing and have any licensing office take that seriously? Surely there are additional electronic records or other security features?

djrogers 5y ago
No, one could not do that. You’d need at least a real name with a valid SSN who’s birthplace and DOB matches what you’re trying to get issued. Definitely possible, but more work than just completely faking up a couple of papers.
bombcar 5y ago
Yeah it’s cross-referenced if possible. The hot shit is to use a baptismal record instead (accepted most anywhere but usually found only for older people).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
zxcvbn4038 5y ago
I know you can purchase books of identity documents from various locations and years and those give details of the various security features that were present and material samples to compare with but I’ve never encountered anyone using them. Usually it’s just making sure I have all the documents, compare with my application, then go stand in line for a picture. Though when I applied for the trusted traveler program they did keep my documents for a few weeks so they might have been doing that sort of verification.
- jonathanlydall 5y ago
  When I did Customer Service at Blizzard EU many years ago they had a product with a catalogue of samples of different passports and identity documents which we could use to compare with the image we had received from someone claiming ownership of an account. It was most amusing when the document you were trying to validate had the exact same person’s photograph as in the sample document.
tedmiston 5y ago
I'm sure an electronic database of birth certificates exists somewhere to handle the case where an original is lost. But I do not think the BMV / DMV does anything to validate your birth certificate itself electronically.

djrogers 5y ago

For the states I’m familiar with, you’d also need a Social Security Number that matched the birth certificate, and a few also require a thumbprint. If you attempted to get an ID card for Joe Smith with SSN 123-45-6789, but he already has one, your photo also wouldn’t match the existing digital photo on record. You would likely be able to get an ID card issued in someone else’s name, but it’s not as easy as typing up a fake birth certificate and electric bill.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
I’ve never seen a birth certificate with a social security number. If you’ve ever had a child, you’ll know that you don’t apply for a SSN until long after birth and the issuance of a birth certificate. Source: three different states, personal experience
- maxerickson 5y ago
  You are over-interpreting. The SSN has a name attached to it. That has to match the birth certificate (probably with some rules about other records for name changes and the like).

Igelau 5y ago

I forget what it was my wife and I were applying for, but we had to produce a "certified copy" of our marriage license. We were just like "yeah, whatever" and toted along the real thing. This was shot down because they needed a certified copy, which turned out to be a completely bland and unremarkable printout that could have come from anywhere.

zxcvbn4038 5y ago
That’s how I feel every time I get asked for a utility bill as proof of anything. Security theater at its finest.

xmprt 5y ago

I suppose attempting that would get you a much higher quality fake however now your fake as well as your address is recorded in the system and you're screwed if they ever catch on. Use someone else's address and it's a federal crime if you go through their mail. I also think there's probably some higher level of identity fraud for messing with government officials as opposed to just messing with a bouncer at a bar.

siva7 5y ago

in most countries faking especially a birth cert alongside other official ID documents is a serious criminal offense. certainly not worth it for getting beer.

isatty 5y ago
People who fake birth certs aren't doing it for the beer.

TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago

Do they actually just go by what it says on the paper, or do they contact the organisation which issued it and check their records?

tedmiston 5y ago
In my state, they just look at the birth certificate and utility bill for a minute or less. However, they may make a copy of the utility bill to keep on file, but my memory is fuzzy about that part.

tinus_hn 5y ago

So how do you prove you actually passed the exam, if all you need for a drivers license is a birth certificate and a utility bill?

tedmiston 5y ago
That is for the renewal. I suspect this varies by state, and I can't speak for other states, but in Ohio the initial driver license also requires: a knowledge test; vision screening; and a driving skills test consisting of two parts: (1) maneuverability, (2) on road. Surprisingly I don't believe there is any updated vision test requirement on renewals once you have a valid license.
- nerdponx 5y ago
  If you already know how to drive, those will slow you down but won't stop you from actually getting the fake ID.

avereveard 5y ago

Here in good old Europe you either produce a valid ID to obtain one (renewals) or you need testimony of two person with valid ID (i.e. theft) or two parents (traditional birth) or one parent ID and a certificate of birth, but the one signed by the hospital, not the birth registration certificate from the government (single parent birth) or a valid visa and a valid foreign ID (immigration) Seems to cover about all cases and pin your identity to previously verified identities recursively