5 ms·

Emulator dev who was bullied online dies by suicide. 'This stuff really hurts.'

77 points by marcan_42 5y ago

marcan_42 5y ago
Originally published on USA TODAY (paywalled): https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2021/07/23/how-toxic-online-cultures-trolling-and-bullying-contribute-suicide/8042846002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2021/07/23/how-toxic-onl... I also previously shared a personal message from a friend: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pOhaaFh998B0kyc5Sm4IhlhIp1c9t5gDNTVVPaiJgI/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pOhaaFh998B0kyc5Sm4Ihlh...
xupybd 5y ago
While I'm a proponent of strengthening individuals to be resilient to online bullies like this I would agree that Kiwi Farms is a problem. They were sharing video of the Christchurch shooting shortly after the attack. I'm also a strong proponent of freedom of speech and association. I'm not sure the best way to handle groups like this. Hate speech laws, IMO, cause more harm than good. In this case however there is another angle of attack, this was targeted harassment. This should and can be cracked down on much harder than it is. I'm truly saddened that this dev committed suicide and hope that others will not suffer the same fate.
- emerged 5y ago
  There may not be any singular moderate approach which completely captures the complexity. The hope is that everyone viciously disagreeing about what to do captures that complexity and over time converges onto some sort of reasonable compromise. Maybe that brute algorithm can somehow be improved using ML techniques though I don’t know what that would look like exactly.
- tpush 5y ago
  > Hate speech laws, IMO, cause more harm than good. What's your evidence? They seem to work fine here in Germany.
  - selectodude 5y ago
    hate speech is relative. allowing speech to be banned means that the group in power can ban whatever they deem to be hateful.
    - JKCalhoun 5y ago
      Sure, at their own peril. Ban speech we, collectively as a society deem hateful, no problem. Ban speech that is critical of those in power .... well, good luck with that. History is not on your side.
  - daenz 5y ago
    An opinion does not require evidence. And even if it did, it should be clear that no such study on such a vague and politically sensitive topic, such as the efficacy of hate speech laws, could ever be conclusive. If you have an opposing opinion, that's fine, but maybe voice why you hold it instead of demanding evidence for others opinions. Personally I think it's silly to jail an 89-year old grandmother for denying the Holocaust[0], but things like that can happen with hate speech laws like Germany has. 0. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/05/08/nazi-grandma-ursula-haverbeck-who-denies-holocaust-taken-jail/589613002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/05/08/nazi-gr...
    - em-bee 5y ago
      look at how active she was and judge for yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck
      - daenz 5y ago
        Uncontroversial speech does not need protection. Sentencing someone to prison for 1/10th of their remaining life span for publishing hurtful words is barbaric.
        _ph_ 5y ago
- s9w 5y ago
  > I'm also a strong proponent of freedom of speech no you're not
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  I think the solution to groups like them is to not go to their websites and ignore them. They behave this way to get a rise out of people.
  - marcan_42 5y ago
    It's not about their website. They openly dox people, and those around them. Near ignored them at first, then they went to harass, dox, and suicide bait Near's friends. How do you ignore that? The forums themselves may look like it's an insulated bubble of hate, but the reality is that a subset of their users coordinate targeted attacks on more secluded platforms. The forums are just the front for much deeper abuse.
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      I understand from reading other parts of this thread that you were a friend of his. Were you subject to any of these attacks? I'd guess you'd be more familiar with exactly what they did. I'd like to understand better what sorts of attacks they did and on what platforms. What's "suicide bait?"
      - marcan_42 5y ago
        Suicide baiting means maliciously encouraging suicide. They targeted one of Near's friends, who was known to have issues with being suicidal, to try to get them to do it. They also doxed several other friends, which damaged Near's friendships. They basically followed and stalked them around the internet, mocking them for anything they could find (e.g. being nonbinary, a furry, etc), documenting what communities they were part of, and identifying targets who might be vulnerable. This deeply hurt Near, as they saw their friends being targeted because of them; they lost friendships over this. There were also plenty of false accusations and attempts to hurt Near's image (e.g. saying they're a pedophile). My friendship with Near was not public, so I didn't receive any harassment directly since they didn't know about me. That said, after I reported the suicide, they tried (and failed) to take over or lock down my Twitter account and to sign me up for a gay porn mailing list. I'm lucky enough to be a straight cis white dude in a good enough psychological state, which doesn't make me a terribly appealing target; others are not so lucky. They go after minorities, those with psychological conditions, etc.
- marcan_42 5y ago
  Kiwi Farms deliberately attacks those who are vulnerable, in the most hurtful way. You or I might be able to brush off some internet trolls, but what if they start targeting, doxing, and suicide baiting your friends? What if some of those friends are already in a vulnerable place? Are you resilient to that? We can't fix this problem by somehow immunizing the population against abuse. Words hurt, and they hurt some people more than others. The only way to fix this is to hold those who abuse others accountable for their actions, as well as those who enable them. This is no different from harassment and stalking in real life. Those are already punished by law. The problem is the law is behind the times, and harassment on the internet is still largely something people get to do with impunity. KiwiFarms exists thanks to Cloudflare (Domain, DNS, DDoS protection) and FiberHub (colocation), who provide services to them and refuse to do anything about the abuse perpetrated by this customer. KiwiFarms isn't even some darknet site; they are openly hosted in the US.
  - xupybd 5y ago
    I fully support laws that criminalize doxing and targeted harassment. I'm also a big fan of helping people deal with such toxic behavior. Through good support networks and the ability to block out groups such as this. Just as I want violent crime to be punished but also want people to be able to protect themselves. In both cases not everyone can be 100% protected but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to help those you can. In both cases you can criminalize certain behavior but you can't prevent it. Because evil people will always be present in society.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    > KiwiFarms exists thanks to Cloudflare Should cloudflare spin up an editorial board to decide what platforms to drop based on complaints? What about cases of poisoning the well, I can get my competitors taken offline by making ugly comments and complaining to cloudflare. It’s untenable, if a customer is breaking the law, let the law seize their servers, until then the service providers should not be adjudicators.
    - throwinawaysoon 5y ago
nextaccountic 5y ago
RIP Near Here are some threads from last month, when it happened https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27652814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27652814 Near, the emulator developer of bsnes, higan, and more, has died https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27657610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27657610 Bsnes author Byuu bullied to suicide by KiwiFarms Some more links https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/06/tributes_pour_in_for_near_the_developer_behind_one_of_the_worlds_best_snes_emulators https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/06/tributes_pour_in_f... https://www.libretro.com/index.php/obituary-near/ https://www.libretro.com/index.php/obituary-near/
- marcan_42 5y ago
  As for that last link, it's worth noting that certain libretro developers were actually part of the mob bullying Near (and KiwiFarmers themselves): https://retroarchleaks.wordpress.com/2017/05/23/byuu/ https://retroarchleaks.wordpress.com/2017/05/23/byuu/ And in fact the person who posted the dox list that was one of the major causes of distress for Near was, by alleged self-admission, a libretro developer, and bragging about it after the death: https://www.reddit.com/r/iamatotalpieceofshit/comments/o9x4r8/near_byuu_is_a_programmer_who_was_bullied_to_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/iamatotalpieceofshit/comments/o9x4r... So I personally find it rather insulting that they posted an obituary, when they were a big part of the problem themselves.
cignepodro 5y ago
I know Alec Holowka was driven to suicide, as I remember reading his obituary in the newspaper. Where is the obituary for this person? (An actual obituary, not anonymous messages on forums.)
- marcan_42 5y ago
  Japanese newspapers do not publish obituaries on average people, only on (local, public) celebrities. Near had several close friends in real life. I was one of them. If my word and that of those around them is not a good enough obituary, I'm afraid that's the best we can do.
  - tmp538394722 5y ago
    I’m so sorry that you lost a friend to this. I’m just an internet stranger, but do you have someone to talk to if you want to?
    - marcan_42 5y ago
      I think I'm okay, but thank you for the offer. I've had dozens of people, friends and strangers alike, offer to talk. <3
      - tmp538394722 5y ago
        Thanks for taking the time to share Near’s story.
aaron695 5y ago
Here's a quote from a Vice article. I'm not linking it. But the person in question they write about was an alleged Nazi. While Vice does this, attacking people as part of an outing story, and Vice is linked regularly on HN, why should I care about Kiwi Farms? "Multiple emails sent to xxxx, family members, and people the Canadian had done work for went unanswered. Despite the lack of response, email tracking software shows the emails sent to xxxx were viewed over 30 times and those sent to his family members and customers were likewise opened and viewed numerous times, but not responded to. "
- raphlinus 5y ago
  I think you're confusing two totally unrelated people. There's nothing in the Vice article about an emulator author, or any of the other things Near was well known for.
  - aaron695 5y ago
    Thanks, I changed the wording.
- McGlockenshire 5y ago
  "BUT WHAT ABOUT INVESTIGATE JOURNALISM INTO NAZIS!?! ISN'T THAT JUST AS BAD AS THE PEOPLE ON A WEBSITE DEDICATED EXCLUSIVELY TO CYBERBULLYING!?" Really? Really? What the FUCK is wrong with you? Look, I know it's considered bad form to call out people on HN in the way I'm doing here, but seriously. What the FUCK is wrong with you?
  - dang 5y ago
    Would you please stop posting flamewar comments and/or unsubstantive comments to HN? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. That's not what this site is for, regardless of how wrong someone is or how bad another comment is, or you feel they are or it is. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
betwixthewires 5y ago
There was a porn star a few years ago who killed herself after she was bullied on twitter for saying she did not want to do shoots with gay men. I forget her name. It's a tragedy whenever anyone kills themselves, but I can't help but feel a little tinge of anger when a rag jumps on these cases to hammer away at a political motivation, and more so when they ignore equally egregious cases because it goes against that political motive.
- arp242 5y ago
  August Ames: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Ames#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Ames#Death So much for "informed consent" from the Twitter crowd 'ey shrug.
marcan_42 5y ago
It's unfortunate this got flagged as a dupe. It's a well-researched, new article containing new reporting and information, as well as statements from experts in suicide and abuse. The reporter also spoke to Near's employer and independently confirmed the death, which is something that the past submissions did not.

77 points by marcan_42 5y ago

Originally published on USA TODAY (paywalled): https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2021/07/23/how-toxic-online-cultures-trolling-and-bullying-contribute-suicide/8042846002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2021/07/23/how-toxic-onl... I also previously shared a personal message from a friend: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pOhaaFh998B0kyc5Sm4IhlhIp1c9t5gDNTVVPaiJgI/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pOhaaFh998B0kyc5Sm4Ihlh...

xupybd 5y ago

While I'm a proponent of strengthening individuals to be resilient to online bullies like this I would agree that Kiwi Farms is a problem. They were sharing video of the Christchurch shooting shortly after the attack. I'm also a strong proponent of freedom of speech and association. I'm not sure the best way to handle groups like this. Hate speech laws, IMO, cause more harm than good. In this case however there is another angle of attack, this was targeted harassment. This should and can be cracked down on much harder than it is. I'm truly saddened that this dev committed suicide and hope that others will not suffer the same fate.

emerged 5y ago
There may not be any singular moderate approach which completely captures the complexity. The hope is that everyone viciously disagreeing about what to do captures that complexity and over time converges onto some sort of reasonable compromise. Maybe that brute algorithm can somehow be improved using ML techniques though I don’t know what that would look like exactly.
tpush 5y ago
> Hate speech laws, IMO, cause more harm than good. What's your evidence? They seem to work fine here in Germany.
- selectodude 5y ago
  hate speech is relative. allowing speech to be banned means that the group in power can ban whatever they deem to be hateful.
  - JKCalhoun 5y ago
    Sure, at their own peril. Ban speech we, collectively as a society deem hateful, no problem. Ban speech that is critical of those in power .... well, good luck with that. History is not on your side.
- daenz 5y ago
  An opinion does not require evidence. And even if it did, it should be clear that no such study on such a vague and politically sensitive topic, such as the efficacy of hate speech laws, could ever be conclusive. If you have an opposing opinion, that's fine, but maybe voice why you hold it instead of demanding evidence for others opinions. Personally I think it's silly to jail an 89-year old grandmother for denying the Holocaust[0], but things like that can happen with hate speech laws like Germany has. 0. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/05/08/nazi-grandma-ursula-haverbeck-who-denies-holocaust-taken-jail/589613002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/05/08/nazi-gr...
  - em-bee 5y ago
    look at how active she was and judge for yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck
    - daenz 5y ago
      Uncontroversial speech does not need protection. Sentencing someone to prison for 1/10th of their remaining life span for publishing hurtful words is barbaric.
      - _ph_ 5y ago
s9w 5y ago
> I'm also a strong proponent of freedom of speech no you're not
betwixthewires 5y ago
I think the solution to groups like them is to not go to their websites and ignore them. They behave this way to get a rise out of people.
- marcan_42 5y ago
  It's not about their website. They openly dox people, and those around them. Near ignored them at first, then they went to harass, dox, and suicide bait Near's friends. How do you ignore that? The forums themselves may look like it's an insulated bubble of hate, but the reality is that a subset of their users coordinate targeted attacks on more secluded platforms. The forums are just the front for much deeper abuse.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    I understand from reading other parts of this thread that you were a friend of his. Were you subject to any of these attacks? I'd guess you'd be more familiar with exactly what they did. I'd like to understand better what sorts of attacks they did and on what platforms. What's "suicide bait?"
    - marcan_42 5y ago
      Suicide baiting means maliciously encouraging suicide. They targeted one of Near's friends, who was known to have issues with being suicidal, to try to get them to do it. They also doxed several other friends, which damaged Near's friendships. They basically followed and stalked them around the internet, mocking them for anything they could find (e.g. being nonbinary, a furry, etc), documenting what communities they were part of, and identifying targets who might be vulnerable. This deeply hurt Near, as they saw their friends being targeted because of them; they lost friendships over this. There were also plenty of false accusations and attempts to hurt Near's image (e.g. saying they're a pedophile). My friendship with Near was not public, so I didn't receive any harassment directly since they didn't know about me. That said, after I reported the suicide, they tried (and failed) to take over or lock down my Twitter account and to sign me up for a gay porn mailing list. I'm lucky enough to be a straight cis white dude in a good enough psychological state, which doesn't make me a terribly appealing target; others are not so lucky. They go after minorities, those with psychological conditions, etc.
marcan_42 5y ago
Kiwi Farms deliberately attacks those who are vulnerable, in the most hurtful way. You or I might be able to brush off some internet trolls, but what if they start targeting, doxing, and suicide baiting your friends? What if some of those friends are already in a vulnerable place? Are you resilient to that? We can't fix this problem by somehow immunizing the population against abuse. Words hurt, and they hurt some people more than others. The only way to fix this is to hold those who abuse others accountable for their actions, as well as those who enable them. This is no different from harassment and stalking in real life. Those are already punished by law. The problem is the law is behind the times, and harassment on the internet is still largely something people get to do with impunity. KiwiFarms exists thanks to Cloudflare (Domain, DNS, DDoS protection) and FiberHub (colocation), who provide services to them and refuse to do anything about the abuse perpetrated by this customer. KiwiFarms isn't even some darknet site; they are openly hosted in the US.
- xupybd 5y ago
  I fully support laws that criminalize doxing and targeted harassment. I'm also a big fan of helping people deal with such toxic behavior. Through good support networks and the ability to block out groups such as this. Just as I want violent crime to be punished but also want people to be able to protect themselves. In both cases not everyone can be 100% protected but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to help those you can. In both cases you can criminalize certain behavior but you can't prevent it. Because evil people will always be present in society.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  > KiwiFarms exists thanks to Cloudflare Should cloudflare spin up an editorial board to decide what platforms to drop based on complaints? What about cases of poisoning the well, I can get my competitors taken offline by making ugly comments and complaining to cloudflare. It’s untenable, if a customer is breaking the law, let the law seize their servers, until then the service providers should not be adjudicators.
  - throwinawaysoon 5y ago

nextaccountic 5y ago

RIP Near Here are some threads from last month, when it happened https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27652814 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27652814 Near, the emulator developer of bsnes, higan, and more, has died https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27657610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27657610 Bsnes author Byuu bullied to suicide by KiwiFarms Some more links https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/06/tributes_pour_in_for_near_the_developer_behind_one_of_the_worlds_best_snes_emulators https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2021/06/tributes_pour_in_f... https://www.libretro.com/index.php/obituary-near/ https://www.libretro.com/index.php/obituary-near/

marcan_42 5y ago
As for that last link, it's worth noting that certain libretro developers were actually part of the mob bullying Near (and KiwiFarmers themselves): https://retroarchleaks.wordpress.com/2017/05/23/byuu/ https://retroarchleaks.wordpress.com/2017/05/23/byuu/ And in fact the person who posted the dox list that was one of the major causes of distress for Near was, by alleged self-admission, a libretro developer, and bragging about it after the death: https://www.reddit.com/r/iamatotalpieceofshit/comments/o9x4r8/near_byuu_is_a_programmer_who_was_bullied_to_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/iamatotalpieceofshit/comments/o9x4r... So I personally find it rather insulting that they posted an obituary, when they were a big part of the problem themselves.

cignepodro 5y ago

I know Alec Holowka was driven to suicide, as I remember reading his obituary in the newspaper. Where is the obituary for this person? (An actual obituary, not anonymous messages on forums.)

marcan_42 5y ago
Japanese newspapers do not publish obituaries on average people, only on (local, public) celebrities. Near had several close friends in real life. I was one of them. If my word and that of those around them is not a good enough obituary, I'm afraid that's the best we can do.
- tmp538394722 5y ago
  I’m so sorry that you lost a friend to this. I’m just an internet stranger, but do you have someone to talk to if you want to?
  - marcan_42 5y ago
    I think I'm okay, but thank you for the offer. I've had dozens of people, friends and strangers alike, offer to talk. <3
    - tmp538394722 5y ago
      Thanks for taking the time to share Near’s story.

aaron695 5y ago

Here's a quote from a Vice article. I'm not linking it. But the person in question they write about was an alleged Nazi. While Vice does this, attacking people as part of an outing story, and Vice is linked regularly on HN, why should I care about Kiwi Farms? "Multiple emails sent to xxxx, family members, and people the Canadian had done work for went unanswered. Despite the lack of response, email tracking software shows the emails sent to xxxx were viewed over 30 times and those sent to his family members and customers were likewise opened and viewed numerous times, but not responded to. "

raphlinus 5y ago
I think you're confusing two totally unrelated people. There's nothing in the Vice article about an emulator author, or any of the other things Near was well known for.
- aaron695 5y ago
  Thanks, I changed the wording.
McGlockenshire 5y ago
"BUT WHAT ABOUT INVESTIGATE JOURNALISM INTO NAZIS!?! ISN'T THAT JUST AS BAD AS THE PEOPLE ON A WEBSITE DEDICATED EXCLUSIVELY TO CYBERBULLYING!?" Really? Really? What the FUCK is wrong with you? Look, I know it's considered bad form to call out people on HN in the way I'm doing here, but seriously. What the FUCK is wrong with you?
- dang 5y ago
  Would you please stop posting flamewar comments and/or unsubstantive comments to HN? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. That's not what this site is for, regardless of how wrong someone is or how bad another comment is, or you feel they are or it is. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

betwixthewires 5y ago

There was a porn star a few years ago who killed herself after she was bullied on twitter for saying she did not want to do shoots with gay men. I forget her name. It's a tragedy whenever anyone kills themselves, but I can't help but feel a little tinge of anger when a rag jumps on these cases to hammer away at a political motivation, and more so when they ignore equally egregious cases because it goes against that political motive.

arp242 5y ago
August Ames: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Ames#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Ames#Death So much for "informed consent" from the Twitter crowd 'ey shrug.

marcan_42 5y ago

It's unfortunate this got flagged as a dupe. It's a well-researched, new article containing new reporting and information, as well as statements from experts in suicide and abuse. The reporter also spoke to Near's employer and independently confirmed the death, which is something that the past submissions did not.