4 ms·

Leviticus is pretty clear, though. So ... why not mention that?

by at_a_remove 5y ago

trasz 5y ago
Leviticus is pretty clear about many things, starting from shellfish.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  The Catholics already answered the shellfish objection. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-on-homosexual-behavior https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-on... You can disagree, but they aren't idiots, they've thought about things. They've had over 2,000 years to think about it. Homosexuality has been around since the Roman era and much earlier.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Homosexuality has been around since the Roman era TIL that the Romans invented homosexuality.
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      And much earlier. Mentioned though because that's when they started.
  - trasz 5y ago
    Of course they aren’t idiots, just liars. There are reasons why the rest of Christianity had to split off from compromised Church half a millennia ago.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > There are reasons why the rest of Christianity had to split off from compromised Church half a millennia ago. You seem to be ignoring the parts that split with the Roman Catholics long before Protestantism was dreamed up (in the case of the Oriental Orthodox and Church of the East, more than 1000 years before.)
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  Yeah, but most of that (with explicit exceptions, which include rules sexual morality) was explicitly deemed to be Jewish ceremonial disciplines not applicable to Gentile Christians (and, by implication, other non-Jews). See, generally, Acts 15. So while that works with some of the arguments people sometimes make from Leviticus, it doesn’t help with the rules on sexual morality.
  - azth 5y ago
    Why are you afraid to admit that your religion prohibits homosexuality? I'm Muslim, and we're not scared to say it.
    - trasz 5y ago
      Two reasons: first, we know some religions do that, and we also know it can be got rid of and nothing bad happens. Second: because if your religion requires one to be a criminal, a civilized society will make sure it’s either fixed, or disappears.
      - azth 5y ago
        Religion can be gotten rid off and nothing bad happens? I take it you haven't seen what the likes of Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler did. No, we're here today because of religion. You owe many of the luxuries of modern life because of the Golden Age of Islam. Your definition of "criminal" just happens to follow the latest fad of the day. Read https://www.kirkdurston.com/blog/unwin https://www.kirkdurston.com/blog/unwin for a very brief overview.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > I take it you haven't seen what the likes of Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler did. Hitler leveraged religion as a tool rather than getting rid of it, and did pretty much the same kind of things as the others (which is individually worse is debatable, though Hitler generally “wins” that competition), so he kind of pretty clearly demonstratee that “getting rid of religion” isn't the source of the problem.
- at_a_remove 5y ago
  Oh yeah. Not a Christian myself, but I would prefer if someone would steelman the argument rather than the usual wishy-washy business about Sodom and Gomorrah, an area of general crappiness which probably called for smiting along a lot of axes.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 5y ago
Sure, a much stronger argument can be made from Leviticus than S&G, but S&G features showing divine judgement and doesn't invite pointing out the way the way OT rules are cherry-picked by Christians (even if it is canonical cherry-picking, since it is specified in the NT.)

Leviticus is pretty clear, though. So ... why not mention that?

trasz 5y ago

Leviticus is pretty clear about many things, starting from shellfish.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
The Catholics already answered the shellfish objection. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-on-homosexual-behavior https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-on... You can disagree, but they aren't idiots, they've thought about things. They've had over 2,000 years to think about it. Homosexuality has been around since the Roman era and much earlier.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Homosexuality has been around since the Roman era TIL that the Romans invented homosexuality.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    And much earlier. Mentioned though because that's when they started.
- trasz 5y ago
  Of course they aren’t idiots, just liars. There are reasons why the rest of Christianity had to split off from compromised Church half a millennia ago.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > There are reasons why the rest of Christianity had to split off from compromised Church half a millennia ago. You seem to be ignoring the parts that split with the Roman Catholics long before Protestantism was dreamed up (in the case of the Oriental Orthodox and Church of the East, more than 1000 years before.)
dragonwriter 5y ago
Yeah, but most of that (with explicit exceptions, which include rules sexual morality) was explicitly deemed to be Jewish ceremonial disciplines not applicable to Gentile Christians (and, by implication, other non-Jews). See, generally, Acts 15. So while that works with some of the arguments people sometimes make from Leviticus, it doesn’t help with the rules on sexual morality.
- azth 5y ago
  Why are you afraid to admit that your religion prohibits homosexuality? I'm Muslim, and we're not scared to say it.
  - trasz 5y ago
    Two reasons: first, we know some religions do that, and we also know it can be got rid of and nothing bad happens. Second: because if your religion requires one to be a criminal, a civilized society will make sure it’s either fixed, or disappears.
    - azth 5y ago
      Religion can be gotten rid off and nothing bad happens? I take it you haven't seen what the likes of Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler did. No, we're here today because of religion. You owe many of the luxuries of modern life because of the Golden Age of Islam. Your definition of "criminal" just happens to follow the latest fad of the day. Read https://www.kirkdurston.com/blog/unwin https://www.kirkdurston.com/blog/unwin for a very brief overview.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > I take it you haven't seen what the likes of Mao, Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler did. Hitler leveraged religion as a tool rather than getting rid of it, and did pretty much the same kind of things as the others (which is individually worse is debatable, though Hitler generally “wins” that competition), so he kind of pretty clearly demonstratee that “getting rid of religion” isn't the source of the problem.
at_a_remove 5y ago
Oh yeah. Not a Christian myself, but I would prefer if someone would steelman the argument rather than the usual wishy-washy business about Sodom and Gomorrah, an area of general crappiness which probably called for smiting along a lot of axes.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dragonwriter 5y ago

Sure, a much stronger argument can be made from Leviticus than S&G, but S&G features showing divine judgement and doesn't invite pointing out the way the way OT rules are cherry-picked by Christians (even if it is canonical cherry-picking, since it is specified in the NT.)