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As an LGBT, I agree its a difficult situation. On the one hand, as you likely do, I feel strongly about private business owners having the freedom to run their

As an LGBT, I agree its a difficult situation. On the one hand, as you likely do, I feel strongly about private business owners having the freedom to run their businesses the way they see fit, including being able to choose their customers. If someone told me they don't want to sell to LGBT, I would accept that decision without complaint because I respect their autonomy (in fact, I would be happy I avoided giving them money). On the other hand, what happens when everyone in an area decides that LGBT, or black people, or Muslims, or anyone else universally aren't welcome. Those people basically get shut out of society, and that doesn't seem like something we want to encourage at a societal level either. Finally, as much as it pains me to say it, there is also the matter of logical consistency: Many Christians would go absolutely ape shit if they were stopped in a store while wearing a cross and told "hey, your kind isn't wanted here"; yet because their preferred exclusion is noted in an old book (which of course, they wrote) that is suddenly perfectly acceptable.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
Now consider the cake. The baker, contrary to headlines, didn't object to selling them a cake. If they wanted a generic cake like the dozens on his shelves, or wanted to buy bottled water or any other of his creations, he would have sold it to them immediately. He objected to making them a personalized cake that endorsed their relationship on it, which would require his creativity to be poured into something explicitly endorsing the issue. And his argument is that if he can be forced to write something endorsing their relationship, why couldn't, say, a racist come in demanding he write something racist on a cake? I don't really object to that balance. If it's something generic and impersonal, sell it, and if it's something very personal, have the right to object. That's not significant exclusion from society. Are you truly significantly excluded from society when you can get the same service from a 7 minute walk to Walmart (as the court case declared), or buy some icing and do it yourself?
- OminousWeapons 5y ago
  In this specific case, I agree with you and the courts. You shouldn't be able to compel speech (i.e. their writing) and you shouldn't be able to compel custom work. I'm speaking more broadly about regional discrimination. If there is only one grocery store in twenty miles, you don't have a car, and you're told you can't do business there, that's a problem. However, this is not the context here and you clearly imply that such behavior would not be ok.
taneq 5y ago
> On the other hand, what happens when everyone in an area decides that LGBT, or black people, or Muslims, or anyone else universally aren't welcome. It doesn't need to be everyone to have a chilling effect on the quality of life for people in the targeted group. I'm all for freedom of expression in general but treating someone badly because of how they were born is just mean.

gjsman-1000 5y ago

Now consider the cake. The baker, contrary to headlines, didn't object to selling them a cake. If they wanted a generic cake like the dozens on his shelves, or wanted to buy bottled water or any other of his creations, he would have sold it to them immediately. He objected to making them a personalized cake that endorsed their relationship on it, which would require his creativity to be poured into something explicitly endorsing the issue. And his argument is that if he can be forced to write something endorsing their relationship, why couldn't, say, a racist come in demanding he write something racist on a cake? I don't really object to that balance. If it's something generic and impersonal, sell it, and if it's something very personal, have the right to object. That's not significant exclusion from society. Are you truly significantly excluded from society when you can get the same service from a 7 minute walk to Walmart (as the court case declared), or buy some icing and do it yourself?

OminousWeapons 5y ago
In this specific case, I agree with you and the courts. You shouldn't be able to compel speech (i.e. their writing) and you shouldn't be able to compel custom work. I'm speaking more broadly about regional discrimination. If there is only one grocery store in twenty miles, you don't have a car, and you're told you can't do business there, that's a problem. However, this is not the context here and you clearly imply that such behavior would not be ok.

taneq 5y ago

> On the other hand, what happens when everyone in an area decides that LGBT, or black people, or Muslims, or anyone else universally aren't welcome. It doesn't need to be everyone to have a chilling effect on the quality of life for people in the targeted group. I'm all for freedom of expression in general but treating someone badly because of how they were born is just mean.