4 ms·

Billion dollar question: do you get more bang for the buck (return on investment, ROI) out of improving robot control schemes, or out of designing the product w

by csours 5y ago

Billion dollar question: do you get more bang for the buck (return on investment, ROI) out of improving robot control schemes, or out of designing the product with automated assembly in mind? Bonus: the ROI changes as you invest in either bucket.

eloff 5y ago
Probably both, to the extent that it's practical.
- csours 5y ago
  Indeed. Looking at their sample footage of assembling Ikea furniture reminds me of fixturing. Watch manufacturing footage and watch out for jigs and fixtures. They are EVERYWHERE. Currently, you can either use fixtures and jigs and specialized machines and run fast, use humans and run medium speed, or use AI and generic robotics and run REALLY SLOWLY. Where's the value prop?
falcor84 5y ago
I'd say invest in the former, as having better robot control schemes should allow you to more easily iterate on different design alternatives
klysm 5y ago
The improvement of robot control schemes reduces the constraints on designs that are designed for automated assembly. I suspect there’s a kind of slow moving coevoultion there where you have to go incrementally at both.
Animats 5y ago
That's a very interesting question. Apple was once into design for assembly. The Macintosh IIci was Apple's peak at design for assembly. It was designed for vertical assembly. Everything clicks into place with a straight-down insertion move. No wiring harnesses. The power supply plugs into the motherboard. An automated plant in Fremont CA did the assembly. Then Apple gave up on design for assembly and went to offshoring and cheap labor. Motorola flip phones were designed for automated assembly. All parts were on boards, and the boards were stacked and compressed into a solid block, with bumps on the boards making connections to the next layer. A tough, reliable phone resulted. Then Motorola gave up and went to offshoring and cheap labor. Sony pioneered this approach. The Sony Walkman,, the original tape unit with motors and contra-rotating flywheels, was built for vertical assembly and assembled by a simple Cartesian robot. Then came the iPod.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  Do you, or anyone else here, know how much money Apple saved by offshoring? I sometimes get it. Then when I hear robots were used, I wonder if it's really necassary to always go to the cheapest labor route. For years, I held it against Apple for moving manufacturing, but gave up when everyone followed.
  - varjag 5y ago
    Manpower is a lot easier (and cheaper) to reconfigure between different products than robotic production lines.
  - bobsomers 5y ago
    > Do you, or anyone else here, know how much money Apple saved by offshoring? There's another axis here, which is how our desire for a product overlaps with DFM. It could be the case that offshoring to cheap labor actually increased the manufacturing costs 2x, but enabled a product that would sell 10x better than its DFM counterpart. (I have no data to say that is the case, only the intution that these things are complicated systems which rarely come down to single-issue decisions.)
    - pimlottc 5y ago
      For those unfamiliar, DFM = design for manufacturing. I had to look it up.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  Apple case is not exactly abandoning design for assembly. The advancement of electronic and metal machining allows smaller and more integrated parts, which allows cheap labor to beat the machine. If the electronics and metal machining did not advance, I am guessing the resultant production cost would not be this low.
  - varjag 5y ago
    Machining is more or less in the same spot it's been since late 1970s.
sdenton4 5y ago
Half of automating tomato harvesting was breeding a tomato that could survive the harvesters. (Granted they also taste relatively horrible, but now we all eat them because they are cheap and ubiquitous.)
- pas 5y ago
  That sounds fascinating. Do you happen to have some details, sources, videos, lectures about this?
  - sdenton4 5y ago
    Here's a short article: https://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/news/how-mechanical-tomato-harvester-prompted-food-movement https://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/news/how-mechanical-to... on edit: I also went ahead and made that article a seperate post here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27937200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27937200

by csours 5y ago

eloff 5y ago

Probably both, to the extent that it's practical.

csours 5y ago
Indeed. Looking at their sample footage of assembling Ikea furniture reminds me of fixturing. Watch manufacturing footage and watch out for jigs and fixtures. They are EVERYWHERE. Currently, you can either use fixtures and jigs and specialized machines and run fast, use humans and run medium speed, or use AI and generic robotics and run REALLY SLOWLY. Where's the value prop?

falcor84 5y ago

I'd say invest in the former, as having better robot control schemes should allow you to more easily iterate on different design alternatives

klysm 5y ago

The improvement of robot control schemes reduces the constraints on designs that are designed for automated assembly. I suspect there’s a kind of slow moving coevoultion there where you have to go incrementally at both.

Animats 5y ago

That's a very interesting question. Apple was once into design for assembly. The Macintosh IIci was Apple's peak at design for assembly. It was designed for vertical assembly. Everything clicks into place with a straight-down insertion move. No wiring harnesses. The power supply plugs into the motherboard. An automated plant in Fremont CA did the assembly. Then Apple gave up on design for assembly and went to offshoring and cheap labor. Motorola flip phones were designed for automated assembly. All parts were on boards, and the boards were stacked and compressed into a solid block, with bumps on the boards making connections to the next layer. A tough, reliable phone resulted. Then Motorola gave up and went to offshoring and cheap labor. Sony pioneered this approach. The Sony Walkman,, the original tape unit with motors and contra-rotating flywheels, was built for vertical assembly and assembled by a simple Cartesian robot. Then came the iPod.

hellbannedguy 5y ago
Do you, or anyone else here, know how much money Apple saved by offshoring? I sometimes get it. Then when I hear robots were used, I wonder if it's really necassary to always go to the cheapest labor route. For years, I held it against Apple for moving manufacturing, but gave up when everyone followed.
- varjag 5y ago
  Manpower is a lot easier (and cheaper) to reconfigure between different products than robotic production lines.
- bobsomers 5y ago
  > Do you, or anyone else here, know how much money Apple saved by offshoring? There's another axis here, which is how our desire for a product overlaps with DFM. It could be the case that offshoring to cheap labor actually increased the manufacturing costs 2x, but enabled a product that would sell 10x better than its DFM counterpart. (I have no data to say that is the case, only the intution that these things are complicated systems which rarely come down to single-issue decisions.)
  - pimlottc 5y ago
    For those unfamiliar, DFM = design for manufacturing. I had to look it up.
justicezyx 5y ago
Apple case is not exactly abandoning design for assembly. The advancement of electronic and metal machining allows smaller and more integrated parts, which allows cheap labor to beat the machine. If the electronics and metal machining did not advance, I am guessing the resultant production cost would not be this low.
- varjag 5y ago
  Machining is more or less in the same spot it's been since late 1970s.

sdenton4 5y ago

Half of automating tomato harvesting was breeding a tomato that could survive the harvesters. (Granted they also taste relatively horrible, but now we all eat them because they are cheap and ubiquitous.)

pas 5y ago
That sounds fascinating. Do you happen to have some details, sources, videos, lectures about this?
- sdenton4 5y ago
  Here's a short article: https://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/news/how-mechanical-tomato-harvester-prompted-food-movement https://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/news/how-mechanical-to... on edit: I also went ahead and made that article a seperate post here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27937200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27937200