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Isn't GPA even easier to game than SATs? -- Private schools can curve more leniently so its pay to play -- Rich schools tend to have more AP/Honor courses whi

Isn't GPA even easier to game than SATs? -- Private schools can curve more leniently so its pay to play -- Rich schools tend to have more AP/Honor courses which inflate weighted GPAs I went to one of the best public schools in America and it was not uncommon for someone to take 100% AP/Honors and get a 4.5+ GPA.

dahfizz 5y ago
I don't see how taking more advanced classes and scoring well is "gaming" your GPA. You are legitimately taking harder / more in depth classes and performing well. The fact that your GPA is higher as a result seems legitimate. You can argue about availability of AP classes / funding / etc, but that doesn't detract from the hard work of the AP students. Plenty of rich white kids take hard AP classes and get D's.
- danaris 5y ago
  In some schools, so I understand, AP and Honors courses come with a "bonus" to GPA—so if you get 100% in the course, it may go down on your transcript as a 110%, that sort of thing.
  - TchoBeer 5y ago
    My school had a pretty good system, where AP grades got a boost proportional to how far from 100 they were, something like 40%, so if you got an 80 raw it would be boosted by 20x.4 = 8 to 88 final score. This effectively means that weaker students aren't penalized for chosing harder classes whilst very strong students don't get rediculously inflated grades.
    - danaris 5y ago
      Oh, at my school it was just a flat addition. That's how the valedictorian and salutatorian a year or so after me ended up with final grades of something like 103.4 and 103.5.
- lostcolony 5y ago
  It's not gaming, per se, but it definitely is a privilege based thing. Getting into an advanced class generally means you already know the material that would be in the normal class (taking trig the year everyone else is taking geometry, for instance). How did you get to where you already knew that material? Well, you were either in the advanced class the year before, or, you already learned the material outside of class. How did you already learn the material outside of class? Better education at home. Which is easy to do with a private tutor or stay at home parent; really hard to do with a single parent, or dual income that don't allow for much in education expenses. And because you are in an advanced class, you basically get a .5-1.0 bump to your GPA (so people are graduating with a 4.5 GPA at some schools), all because you had the extra early resources; you can't compete with just what the school provides.
  - stale2002 5y ago
    > . How did you already learn the material outside of class? Better education at home. You are basically saying if someone is more educated, that they will do better in education. Yes, that's the point. The more time and effort someone spends in their education, the better they will do in education.
    - lostcolony 5y ago
      No. I am explicitly pointing out that even if you learn everything taught in class 100%, and get perfect grades in it, you may not be eligible for some advanced classes. It requires outside investment. And then the advanced classes give you a leg up in terms of college admissions if GPA is a guaranteed entry point. That means the grade inflation of AP classes just serves as an indirect proxy for money, rather than a reasonable consideration for class performance, knowledge, aptitude, or any such thing.
      - vt100 5y ago
        The "outside investment" is just time and effort. There is free access to information via public libraries, the internet, youtube, mathworld, etc.
- charlesju 5y ago
  Given 2 equally smart people. The one that has the opportunity to take more AP/Honors will have more opportunity to get a higher GPA.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    Gaming implies that your metrics are being ruined by moving towards an opposite effect, not that they fail to be perfect. Similarly, doing well in the IMO could be a predictor of wealth and circumstance, but it's also a signal for math talent. If we're saying that AP tests and classes are too easy, then of course people can have a discussion about increasing difficulty.
    - charlesju 5y ago
      All I know is there are trivial AP classes like AP Government, AP Econ, AP Art, AP Computer Science, etc. at my school. Almost everyone got an A and a 4 or 5 on the test.
      - TchoBeer 5y ago
        In 2021, Under 50% of students got a 4/5 on compsci, econ (both of them), gov, and Art. The only thing which can charitably be included is AP drawing, which about 52% got a 4 or above. The high scores in your classes have more to do with school quality than anything else. Stats from https://www.totalregistration.net/AP-Exam-Registration-Service/AP-Exam-Score-Distributions.php https://www.totalregistration.net/AP-Exam-Registration-Servi...
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    And as a result, the person who took more Honors classes will be "more educated" (assuming the Honors / AP classes succeed in their stated goal). Therefore, the student that took the Honors classes is more competitive. It comes back to the question of what universities should prioritize. Should they be optimizing for the fairest / most equal student body, or the most gifted / competitive student body?
Dracophoenix 5y ago
Would the school you went to be TJHSST?
- raunak 5y ago
  Well, I graduated from TJ this year (2021) and it wasn’t very common for people to have a 4.5+. Yes, some, but not the average by any stretch - average was probably a 4.2, or a 4.3.
BitwiseFool 5y ago
Grade inflation is already a serious problem. I can only see this making it even worse.
lozaning 5y ago
UC system, back when I applied only let you weight something like 8 classes, regardless of how many you'd taken.
president 5y ago
Presumably, that could be solved by lowering the weight for GPA
xyzzy21 5y ago
Private schools could but in my experience as a private HS grad, they DO NOT. There are other factors that prevent that.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  Some don't. Others definitely do.
- mattnewton 5y ago
  This kind of drives home the bigger issue though, that grades between two schools look like comparable numbers but aren't.
deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
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dnautics 5y ago
in california the top X% of all public high schools are guaranteed a berth at SOME UC, so to some degree intra-school comparisons are less at issue. (parent article is about the UC system as a whole).

dahfizz 5y ago

I don't see how taking more advanced classes and scoring well is "gaming" your GPA. You are legitimately taking harder / more in depth classes and performing well. The fact that your GPA is higher as a result seems legitimate. You can argue about availability of AP classes / funding / etc, but that doesn't detract from the hard work of the AP students. Plenty of rich white kids take hard AP classes and get D's.

danaris 5y ago
In some schools, so I understand, AP and Honors courses come with a "bonus" to GPA—so if you get 100% in the course, it may go down on your transcript as a 110%, that sort of thing.
- TchoBeer 5y ago
  My school had a pretty good system, where AP grades got a boost proportional to how far from 100 they were, something like 40%, so if you got an 80 raw it would be boosted by 20x.4 = 8 to 88 final score. This effectively means that weaker students aren't penalized for chosing harder classes whilst very strong students don't get rediculously inflated grades.
  - danaris 5y ago
    Oh, at my school it was just a flat addition. That's how the valedictorian and salutatorian a year or so after me ended up with final grades of something like 103.4 and 103.5.
lostcolony 5y ago
It's not gaming, per se, but it definitely is a privilege based thing. Getting into an advanced class generally means you already know the material that would be in the normal class (taking trig the year everyone else is taking geometry, for instance). How did you get to where you already knew that material? Well, you were either in the advanced class the year before, or, you already learned the material outside of class. How did you already learn the material outside of class? Better education at home. Which is easy to do with a private tutor or stay at home parent; really hard to do with a single parent, or dual income that don't allow for much in education expenses. And because you are in an advanced class, you basically get a .5-1.0 bump to your GPA (so people are graduating with a 4.5 GPA at some schools), all because you had the extra early resources; you can't compete with just what the school provides.
- stale2002 5y ago
  > . How did you already learn the material outside of class? Better education at home. You are basically saying if someone is more educated, that they will do better in education. Yes, that's the point. The more time and effort someone spends in their education, the better they will do in education.
  - lostcolony 5y ago
    No. I am explicitly pointing out that even if you learn everything taught in class 100%, and get perfect grades in it, you may not be eligible for some advanced classes. It requires outside investment. And then the advanced classes give you a leg up in terms of college admissions if GPA is a guaranteed entry point. That means the grade inflation of AP classes just serves as an indirect proxy for money, rather than a reasonable consideration for class performance, knowledge, aptitude, or any such thing.
    - vt100 5y ago
      The "outside investment" is just time and effort. There is free access to information via public libraries, the internet, youtube, mathworld, etc.
charlesju 5y ago
Given 2 equally smart people. The one that has the opportunity to take more AP/Honors will have more opportunity to get a higher GPA.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  Gaming implies that your metrics are being ruined by moving towards an opposite effect, not that they fail to be perfect. Similarly, doing well in the IMO could be a predictor of wealth and circumstance, but it's also a signal for math talent. If we're saying that AP tests and classes are too easy, then of course people can have a discussion about increasing difficulty.
  - charlesju 5y ago
    All I know is there are trivial AP classes like AP Government, AP Econ, AP Art, AP Computer Science, etc. at my school. Almost everyone got an A and a 4 or 5 on the test.
    - TchoBeer 5y ago
      In 2021, Under 50% of students got a 4/5 on compsci, econ (both of them), gov, and Art. The only thing which can charitably be included is AP drawing, which about 52% got a 4 or above. The high scores in your classes have more to do with school quality than anything else. Stats from https://www.totalregistration.net/AP-Exam-Registration-Service/AP-Exam-Score-Distributions.php https://www.totalregistration.net/AP-Exam-Registration-Servi...
- dahfizz 5y ago
  And as a result, the person who took more Honors classes will be "more educated" (assuming the Honors / AP classes succeed in their stated goal). Therefore, the student that took the Honors classes is more competitive. It comes back to the question of what universities should prioritize. Should they be optimizing for the fairest / most equal student body, or the most gifted / competitive student body?

Dracophoenix 5y ago

Would the school you went to be TJHSST?

raunak 5y ago
Well, I graduated from TJ this year (2021) and it wasn’t very common for people to have a 4.5+. Yes, some, but not the average by any stretch - average was probably a 4.2, or a 4.3.

BitwiseFool 5y ago

Grade inflation is already a serious problem. I can only see this making it even worse.

lozaning 5y ago

UC system, back when I applied only let you weight something like 8 classes, regardless of how many you'd taken.

president 5y ago

Presumably, that could be solved by lowering the weight for GPA

xyzzy21 5y ago

Private schools could but in my experience as a private HS grad, they DO NOT. There are other factors that prevent that.

jessaustin 5y ago
Some don't. Others definitely do.
mattnewton 5y ago
This kind of drives home the bigger issue though, that grades between two schools look like comparable numbers but aren't.

deleted 5y ago

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deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

dnautics 5y ago

in california the top X% of all public high schools are guaranteed a berth at SOME UC, so to some degree intra-school comparisons are less at issue. (parent article is about the UC system as a whole).