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I really hate this modern idea that we need to cancel every historical figure because they don't live up to our modern standards. When you cancel someone you b

I really hate this modern idea that we need to cancel every historical figure because they don't live up to our modern standards. When you cancel someone you basically are saying they're evil. Do we really want to treat the entirety of human history as evil? Because, spoiler alert every human in history has done something we consider wrong today.

azinman2 5y ago
But playing devils advocate here, would you be ok with naming things after Stalin? Hitler? Ivan the terrible? Or keeping things named after them? I’m guessing there’s a spectrum here, so the question is where’s the line?
- chucksta 5y ago
  Yes, we name things after Satan and Hell. So why not, doesn't mean it has to be a "good" thing
- teddyh 5y ago
  As time passes, history becomes legend, legend becomes myth, and actual people turn into symbols of something else: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2000/fv01950.htm http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2000/fv01950.htm
only_as_i_fall 5y ago
Seems like a big leap. I don't think anyone is saying James Webb was evil, but that maybe Nasa should be careful of honoring a man who didn't reflect their current values. That said I'm not sure it's worth it to change the name because very few people even know who James Webb was.
- serverholic 5y ago
  Strong actions call for strong words. Observing living people who are cancelled, it's like a scarlett letter. It's beyond getting a slap on the wrist. Getting cancelled is getting branded as a bad person.
  - only_as_i_fall 5y ago
    But James Webb isn't a living person so...how does this relate?
    - serverholic 5y ago
      You said "Seems like a big leap. I don't think anyone is saying James Webb was evil"
ravi-delia 5y ago
So there are a few things here. Not wanting historical figures to be evil is a poor basis of morality. Backwards compatibility isn't some thing that matters very much to me in this department, especially considering all the slavery and murder and illegality of my sexual preferences that went on. That being said, sure. We can gauge people by the standards of their day, should that be helpful, as long as we don't confuse their standards for acceptable ones. However, that's all beside the point. There is a world of difference between 'canceling' someone by firing them now, 'canceling' someone by renaming things already named after them, and 'canceling' someone by...failing to name something new after them? I don't get a cool new satellite named after me, have I been canceled? Am I evil? How many people do you think even had an opinion on a NASA bureaucrat from the 60s? The fact is, the satellite isn't even in the air (or out of it, I suppose). James Webb isn't hurt or helped one bit no matter how this goes. He isn't a scientist, or particularly noted in popular culture. The naming of the satellite happened in the 2000s, not in the distant past when there was an excuse. Was James Webb evil? Who cares!? There are plenty of people to name a satellite after.
- serverholic 5y ago
  If we used your standards to name the satellite then there would be almost nobody to name it after. If you dig deep enough almost everyone alive and dead is cancellable.
sp332 5y ago
It's not "historical". LGBT+ people are still discriminated against, fired, attacked and killed. Sometimes by bigots and sometimes by well-meaning people in a system designed to discriminate. Naming a current project after a historical figure with a position still shared by a current set of powerful bigots gives them legitimacy in the present.
- serverholic 5y ago
  I don't think you understand what historical figure means.
  - sp332 5y ago
    You're trying to draw a line between modern views and historical views.
    - serverholic 5y ago
      LGBT have been getting shit on for pretty much all of history. I don't get the point in making the distinction you're trying to make.
      - sp332 5y ago
        Ok so we're judging a near-contemporary character (he died in 1992) for actions that he took in living memory. It's completely relevant to use modern standards to judge him.
        serverholic 5y ago
        When I was a kid in the 90s it was common for people to say "that's gay" instead of "that sucks". I don't think you realize how much things have changed.
        garblegarble 5y ago
        I heard somebody say that last night and nobody in their group objected, so I'm afraid we've not moved as far forward as we often think

azinman2 5y ago

But playing devils advocate here, would you be ok with naming things after Stalin? Hitler? Ivan the terrible? Or keeping things named after them? I’m guessing there’s a spectrum here, so the question is where’s the line?

chucksta 5y ago
Yes, we name things after Satan and Hell. So why not, doesn't mean it has to be a "good" thing
teddyh 5y ago
As time passes, history becomes legend, legend becomes myth, and actual people turn into symbols of something else: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2000/fv01950.htm http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2000/fv01950.htm

only_as_i_fall 5y ago

Seems like a big leap. I don't think anyone is saying James Webb was evil, but that maybe Nasa should be careful of honoring a man who didn't reflect their current values. That said I'm not sure it's worth it to change the name because very few people even know who James Webb was.

serverholic 5y ago
Strong actions call for strong words. Observing living people who are cancelled, it's like a scarlett letter. It's beyond getting a slap on the wrist. Getting cancelled is getting branded as a bad person.
- only_as_i_fall 5y ago
  But James Webb isn't a living person so...how does this relate?
  - serverholic 5y ago
    You said "Seems like a big leap. I don't think anyone is saying James Webb was evil"

ravi-delia 5y ago

So there are a few things here. Not wanting historical figures to be evil is a poor basis of morality. Backwards compatibility isn't some thing that matters very much to me in this department, especially considering all the slavery and murder and illegality of my sexual preferences that went on. That being said, sure. We can gauge people by the standards of their day, should that be helpful, as long as we don't confuse their standards for acceptable ones. However, that's all beside the point. There is a world of difference between 'canceling' someone by firing them now, 'canceling' someone by renaming things already named after them, and 'canceling' someone by...failing to name something new after them? I don't get a cool new satellite named after me, have I been canceled? Am I evil? How many people do you think even had an opinion on a NASA bureaucrat from the 60s? The fact is, the satellite isn't even in the air (or out of it, I suppose). James Webb isn't hurt or helped one bit no matter how this goes. He isn't a scientist, or particularly noted in popular culture. The naming of the satellite happened in the 2000s, not in the distant past when there was an excuse. Was James Webb evil? Who cares!? There are plenty of people to name a satellite after.

serverholic 5y ago
If we used your standards to name the satellite then there would be almost nobody to name it after. If you dig deep enough almost everyone alive and dead is cancellable.

sp332 5y ago

It's not "historical". LGBT+ people are still discriminated against, fired, attacked and killed. Sometimes by bigots and sometimes by well-meaning people in a system designed to discriminate. Naming a current project after a historical figure with a position still shared by a current set of powerful bigots gives them legitimacy in the present.

serverholic 5y ago
I don't think you understand what historical figure means.
- sp332 5y ago
  You're trying to draw a line between modern views and historical views.
  - serverholic 5y ago
    LGBT have been getting shit on for pretty much all of history. I don't get the point in making the distinction you're trying to make.
    - sp332 5y ago
      Ok so we're judging a near-contemporary character (he died in 1992) for actions that he took in living memory. It's completely relevant to use modern standards to judge him.
      - serverholic 5y ago
        When I was a kid in the 90s it was common for people to say "that's gay" instead of "that sucks". I don't think you realize how much things have changed.
        garblegarble 5y ago
        I heard somebody say that last night and nobody in their group objected, so I'm afraid we've not moved as far forward as we often think