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Absolutely, and it's set up this way on purpose by people who believe that filing taxes should be as painful and difficult as possible so people associate the i

Absolutely, and it's set up this way on purpose by people who believe that filing taxes should be as painful and difficult as possible so people associate the idea of taxes with the artificially difficult process. It doesn't have to be this way, the rest of us are just held hostage by anti-tax zealots.

snakeboy 5y ago
Same principle as Cookie Banners. Wanting basic browsing privacy is being associated with an annoying, artificially difficult process.
flavius29663 5y ago
You seriously think that people want less taxes just because they are difficult to file? Don't you think that paying 10-40 percentage points more (like in Europe) of your wage each month has something to do with it? The typical educated European makes 30k a year. 40-45% in taxes right off the bat. That makes the take home to be around 18k. Sales tax is around 20% throughout Europe. That takes it from 18k to 16k. Gas is double the price solely because of taxes Property tax can increase the housing cost by 10% Automobile property taxes are outrageous compared to the US. New vehicle registration tax can reach 150% in Denmark (if the car costs 30k, pay 45k to the state), but are pretty high everywhere. In Romania, to register a 10 year old car with a 2.4 liter engine you have to pay 6000 euros. In a country with the average wage 1000 a month. I find it so amusing that people think taxes are just an inconvenience. By the way, if you want to pay more, you can just donate your money to charities: you have a higher impact than giving it to government, much better directed at what you care about, very easy to do. Donate 10-20% of your raw income to an ngo, then talk about doing that for everyone, compulsory.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  From what I've read, US tax burden is pretty similar to Europe if you include health insurance costs, you just get less for it. Property prices are the main thing that seems much worse in Europe, but that doesn't have anything to do with taxes. Donating my income is besides the point, as it's the top income brackets that really need to be taxed. I would and do happily vote for higher taxes on myself when the option is available.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > US tax burden is pretty similar to Europe if you include health insurance costs The U.S. collected 10% of its GDP in taxes in 2020 [1]; France and Italy did about 25%, Germany 11.5%. (Switzerland and "communist" China clock in below 10%.) There is sufficient variation in tax policy across the EU, let alone Europe, to make broad-based comparisons meaningless. [1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS?most_recent_value_desc=false https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS?most_... a more-expansive definition from the Fed raises this to 16% [a] [a] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S
    - flavius29663 5y ago
      There is no way German tax as part of GDP is just 11.5% Maybe just some subset of taxes Overall it's 38%: https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-germany.pdf https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-germany.pdf For the US you're missing some taxes, too because the overall is somewhere near 30%, 10 percentage points lower than Germany. I think your US link does not include state and local taxes etc
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      > The U.S. collected 10% of its GDP in taxes in 2020 This is incorrect (despite the citation). Federal tax collection in 2020 was about 16% of GDP https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S The OECD reports "The tax-to-GDP ratio in the United States has decreased from 28.3% in 2000 to 24.5% in 2019." https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-states.pdf https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-states.pd... For comparison, the weighted average in other OECD countries is about 34%.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  > makes 30k a year. 40-45% in taxes right off the bat Pretty much nowhere in Europe you're paying (effective) 40% on a 30k/yr salary. Nowhere. You're most likely not even reaching that tax level. > New vehicle registration tax can reach 150% in Denmark > Private cars: 25% of DKK 65,000, 85% of DKK 65,000-202,200 and 150% of the rest. https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2244599 https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2244599 So again you don't know how tax bands work (and Denmark is kinda of an exception)
  - flavius29663 5y ago
    > It's not "sales tax" Sure, it's "VAT" - but it's essentially the same thing. You pay it for almost everything you buy. There are some lower rates for food in some places. But guess what, US has that too. > Nowhere Try this https://accace.com/payroll-calculator-romania/ https://accace.com/payroll-calculator-romania/
    - raverbashing 5y ago
      Thanks for the link, but again you're taking the exception as the rule. Most countries don't work like that. (it's also possible that social security is deductible before income tax is levied as per this site but I'm not looking too deeply into it: https://expatcenter.ro/tax-guide/ https://expatcenter.ro/tax-guide/ )
      - 988747 5y ago
        Romania also don't work like that, in principle. They are simply much poorer country than Norway. 30k EUR salary in Romania is upper middle class income, so it is heavily taxed. People making average wage pay much lower taxes. Also, if I get the linked calculator right, then it expects you to put MONTHLY salary, in RONs, not EUR. So, just putting 30000 there you get a monthly salary of over 6000 EUR, or 72k per year. And that's taxed at 41%.
        flavius29663 5y ago
        Romania is much poorer than Norway, but the tax is the same - it's a flat tax rate. Play with the calculator and you'll see. The numbers are in RON - which is 5 times smaller than the dollar, and the value is implied to be monthly - but it makes no difference because of the flat rate. In other countries you might have tax brackets, but I know from experience that it's very easy to reach 45% total tax rate (not marginal). e.g. try Belgium, at 100k the state gets 50% https://www.belgiumtaxcalculator.com/?salary=100000&average=true&zip=&childrenUnderThree=0&childrenOverThree=0 https://www.belgiumtaxcalculator.com/?salary=100000&average=... Try UK. At 50k you pay "only" 26%, but then in the US you pay almost nothing, if you have a family with kids and use the deductions smartly.
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  > The typical educated European makes 30k a year. 40-45% in taxes right off the bat. Drivel. Here in Norway (widely reputed to be heavily taxed) a single person earning 30 kUSD and having neither debts nor savings would pay 4752 USD in tax, about 15%. You would then pay up to 25% VAT on things you buy (less on food and rent). See https://skattekalkulator2018.app.skatteetaten.no/?aar=2020&alder=65&alderEF&kommune&locale=nb_NO&sivilstand=UGIFT&tolvdelVedArbeidsoppholdINorge=12&tolvdelVedArbeidsoppholdINorgeEF=12&vilHaTolvdel=false https://skattekalkulator2018.app.skatteetaten.no/?aar=2020&a...
- Y_Y 5y ago
  I'd like to see a citation for those income numbers, they're much lower than the figures from e.g. Eurostat: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Living_conditions_in_Europe_-_income_distribution_and_income_inequality https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

snakeboy 5y ago

Same principle as Cookie Banners. Wanting basic browsing privacy is being associated with an annoying, artificially difficult process.

flavius29663 5y ago

You seriously think that people want less taxes just because they are difficult to file? Don't you think that paying 10-40 percentage points more (like in Europe) of your wage each month has something to do with it? The typical educated European makes 30k a year. 40-45% in taxes right off the bat. That makes the take home to be around 18k. Sales tax is around 20% throughout Europe. That takes it from 18k to 16k. Gas is double the price solely because of taxes Property tax can increase the housing cost by 10% Automobile property taxes are outrageous compared to the US. New vehicle registration tax can reach 150% in Denmark (if the car costs 30k, pay 45k to the state), but are pretty high everywhere. In Romania, to register a 10 year old car with a 2.4 liter engine you have to pay 6000 euros. In a country with the average wage 1000 a month. I find it so amusing that people think taxes are just an inconvenience. By the way, if you want to pay more, you can just donate your money to charities: you have a higher impact than giving it to government, much better directed at what you care about, very easy to do. Donate 10-20% of your raw income to an ngo, then talk about doing that for everyone, compulsory.

nicoburns 5y ago
From what I've read, US tax burden is pretty similar to Europe if you include health insurance costs, you just get less for it. Property prices are the main thing that seems much worse in Europe, but that doesn't have anything to do with taxes. Donating my income is besides the point, as it's the top income brackets that really need to be taxed. I would and do happily vote for higher taxes on myself when the option is available.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > US tax burden is pretty similar to Europe if you include health insurance costs The U.S. collected 10% of its GDP in taxes in 2020 [1]; France and Italy did about 25%, Germany 11.5%. (Switzerland and "communist" China clock in below 10%.) There is sufficient variation in tax policy across the EU, let alone Europe, to make broad-based comparisons meaningless. [1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS?most_recent_value_desc=false https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS?most_... a more-expansive definition from the Fed raises this to 16% [a] [a] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S
  - flavius29663 5y ago
    There is no way German tax as part of GDP is just 11.5% Maybe just some subset of taxes Overall it's 38%: https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-germany.pdf https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-germany.pdf For the US you're missing some taxes, too because the overall is somewhere near 30%, 10 percentage points lower than Germany. I think your US link does not include state and local taxes etc
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    > The U.S. collected 10% of its GDP in taxes in 2020 This is incorrect (despite the citation). Federal tax collection in 2020 was about 16% of GDP https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S The OECD reports "The tax-to-GDP ratio in the United States has decreased from 28.3% in 2000 to 24.5% in 2019." https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-states.pdf https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-states.pd... For comparison, the weighted average in other OECD countries is about 34%.
raverbashing 5y ago
> makes 30k a year. 40-45% in taxes right off the bat Pretty much nowhere in Europe you're paying (effective) 40% on a 30k/yr salary. Nowhere. You're most likely not even reaching that tax level. > New vehicle registration tax can reach 150% in Denmark > Private cars: 25% of DKK 65,000, 85% of DKK 65,000-202,200 and 150% of the rest. https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2244599 https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2244599 So again you don't know how tax bands work (and Denmark is kinda of an exception)
- flavius29663 5y ago
  > It's not "sales tax" Sure, it's "VAT" - but it's essentially the same thing. You pay it for almost everything you buy. There are some lower rates for food in some places. But guess what, US has that too. > Nowhere Try this https://accace.com/payroll-calculator-romania/ https://accace.com/payroll-calculator-romania/
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    Thanks for the link, but again you're taking the exception as the rule. Most countries don't work like that. (it's also possible that social security is deductible before income tax is levied as per this site but I'm not looking too deeply into it: https://expatcenter.ro/tax-guide/ https://expatcenter.ro/tax-guide/ )
    - 988747 5y ago
      Romania also don't work like that, in principle. They are simply much poorer country than Norway. 30k EUR salary in Romania is upper middle class income, so it is heavily taxed. People making average wage pay much lower taxes. Also, if I get the linked calculator right, then it expects you to put MONTHLY salary, in RONs, not EUR. So, just putting 30000 there you get a monthly salary of over 6000 EUR, or 72k per year. And that's taxed at 41%.
      - flavius29663 5y ago
        Romania is much poorer than Norway, but the tax is the same - it's a flat tax rate. Play with the calculator and you'll see. The numbers are in RON - which is 5 times smaller than the dollar, and the value is implied to be monthly - but it makes no difference because of the flat rate. In other countries you might have tax brackets, but I know from experience that it's very easy to reach 45% total tax rate (not marginal). e.g. try Belgium, at 100k the state gets 50% https://www.belgiumtaxcalculator.com/?salary=100000&average=true&zip=&childrenUnderThree=0&childrenOverThree=0 https://www.belgiumtaxcalculator.com/?salary=100000&average=... Try UK. At 50k you pay "only" 26%, but then in the US you pay almost nothing, if you have a family with kids and use the deductions smartly.
kwhitefoot 5y ago
> The typical educated European makes 30k a year. 40-45% in taxes right off the bat. Drivel. Here in Norway (widely reputed to be heavily taxed) a single person earning 30 kUSD and having neither debts nor savings would pay 4752 USD in tax, about 15%. You would then pay up to 25% VAT on things you buy (less on food and rent). See https://skattekalkulator2018.app.skatteetaten.no/?aar=2020&alder=65&alderEF&kommune&locale=nb_NO&sivilstand=UGIFT&tolvdelVedArbeidsoppholdINorge=12&tolvdelVedArbeidsoppholdINorgeEF=12&vilHaTolvdel=false https://skattekalkulator2018.app.skatteetaten.no/?aar=2020&a...
Y_Y 5y ago
I'd like to see a citation for those income numbers, they're much lower than the figures from e.g. Eurostat: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Living_conditions_in_Europe_-_income_distribution_and_income_inequality https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...