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Check out Islam's Zakat laws, they're exactly that.

by azth 5y ago

eru 5y ago
Could you elaborate? According to Wikipedia Zakat is basically a tax on wealth (not income!); the funds are supposed to go to various needy / worthy people, but it doesn't mention anything about unemployment. Anything I'm missing that you want to point out?
- azth 5y ago
  Sure. Zakat is a form of "wealth tax" if you will. For money above a certain minimum amount held for a lunar year, 2.5% of it is to be given to certain individuals (there are several categories of such people mentioned in the Quran and Hadith). It's superior to an income tax model, which many people today are complaining about. Taxation in the US and Europe is 40% or more, crazy. Zakat on produce (fruits and veggies), and cattle each have a different way of calculation. As far as unemployment goes, if the unemployed individual falls into one of the categories of people that deserve Zakat, then he will get it, it's quite straightforward and very fair. Actually, an individual may be employed and still deserve Zakat. This way, we ensure that the lower class of people are lifted up, while not overburdening society with insanely high tax rates.
  - eru 5y ago
    Thanks for explaining. Economists have also looked into the effects of wealth taxes. Taxes specifically on the value of land held enjoy broad academic support: land is hard to hide or smuggle out of the country, and its supply is fixed. > As far as unemployment goes, if the unemployed individual falls into one of the categories of people that deserve Zakat, then he will get it, it's quite straightforward and very fair. Actually, an individual may be employed and still deserve Zakat. Yes, that's what I alluded to: making unemployment the condition to get assistance, gives a certain (perhaps small) disincentive to employment. Of course, making being needy the condition instead of being unemployed, gives a certain incentive to staying needy. Traditionally communities regulated this via social mores and standards.
    - azth 5y ago
      > Taxes specifically on the value of land held enjoy broad academic support: land is hard to hide or smuggle out of the country, and its supply is fixed. Interesting point. As far as I'm aware though, Zakat laws do not apply to land. Only if that land is making produce, then Zakat is owed on that produce. Zakat does not apply to properties either. > Yes, that's what I alluded to: making unemployment the condition to get assistance, gives a certain (perhaps small) disincentive to employment. Yes I think I agree. It also goes both ways. Not every unemployed person needs assistance. A rich retired person does not need any for example. > making being needy the condition instead of being unemployed, gives a certain incentive to staying needy This only seems to be a problem in modern Western societies that have certain social programs which people keep debating. To be more specific, just because someone is unemployed, they are not automatically immediately eligible to receive Zakat. They only take Zakat if they fall under one of the categories of people eligible to receive it. Islam encourages people not to be needy and depend on others; they should work to sustain themselves and not be a burden (e.g. https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:296 https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:296). Living one's life purposefully relying on Zakat is not something that is common (of course barring certain situations that are beyond one's control, e.g. some severe injury or an old person who has no family members left). If you look at historic accounts, there was a time during the Ummayad Caliphate where in Iraq there were no people left to take Zakat, because everyone paid their share and everyone was working. The poor class was all but eliminated.
      - eru 5y ago
        > Interesting point. As far as I'm aware though, Zakat laws do not apply to land. Only if that land is making produce, then Zakat is owed on that produce. Zakat does not apply to properties either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax Interesting! Land Value Taxes are seen as especially efficient, because they also apply to fallow land. Thus giving a strong incentive to do something with the land, instead of just 'banking' it. > Islam encourages people not to be needy and depend on others; they should work to sustain themselves and not be a burden (e.g. https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:296 https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:296). Living one's life purposefully relying on Zakat is not something that is common (of course barring certain situations that are beyond one's control, e.g. some severe injury or an old person who has no family members left). If you look at historic accounts, there was a time during the Ummayad Caliphate where in Iraq there were no people left to take Zakat, because everyone paid their share and everyone was working. The poor class was all but eliminated. These kinds of social norms are common outside of Islam as well, and very doable in smaller scale communities. It's a bit harder to keep them up when the welfare system gets administered at the level of large countries. (Though not necessarily impossible.) Of course, geographic diversification also has its advantages: even if a whole region is devastated, the rest of the country can easily pitch in. Trade-offs everywhere.

Check out Islam's Zakat laws, they're exactly that.

by azth 5y ago

Check out Islam's Zakat laws, they're exactly that.

eru 5y ago

Could you elaborate? According to Wikipedia Zakat is basically a tax on wealth (not income!); the funds are supposed to go to various needy / worthy people, but it doesn't mention anything about unemployment. Anything I'm missing that you want to point out?

azth 5y ago
Sure. Zakat is a form of "wealth tax" if you will. For money above a certain minimum amount held for a lunar year, 2.5% of it is to be given to certain individuals (there are several categories of such people mentioned in the Quran and Hadith). It's superior to an income tax model, which many people today are complaining about. Taxation in the US and Europe is 40% or more, crazy. Zakat on produce (fruits and veggies), and cattle each have a different way of calculation. As far as unemployment goes, if the unemployed individual falls into one of the categories of people that deserve Zakat, then he will get it, it's quite straightforward and very fair. Actually, an individual may be employed and still deserve Zakat. This way, we ensure that the lower class of people are lifted up, while not overburdening society with insanely high tax rates.
- eru 5y ago
  Thanks for explaining. Economists have also looked into the effects of wealth taxes. Taxes specifically on the value of land held enjoy broad academic support: land is hard to hide or smuggle out of the country, and its supply is fixed. > As far as unemployment goes, if the unemployed individual falls into one of the categories of people that deserve Zakat, then he will get it, it's quite straightforward and very fair. Actually, an individual may be employed and still deserve Zakat. Yes, that's what I alluded to: making unemployment the condition to get assistance, gives a certain (perhaps small) disincentive to employment. Of course, making being needy the condition instead of being unemployed, gives a certain incentive to staying needy. Traditionally communities regulated this via social mores and standards.
  - azth 5y ago
    > Taxes specifically on the value of land held enjoy broad academic support: land is hard to hide or smuggle out of the country, and its supply is fixed. Interesting point. As far as I'm aware though, Zakat laws do not apply to land. Only if that land is making produce, then Zakat is owed on that produce. Zakat does not apply to properties either. > Yes, that's what I alluded to: making unemployment the condition to get assistance, gives a certain (perhaps small) disincentive to employment. Yes I think I agree. It also goes both ways. Not every unemployed person needs assistance. A rich retired person does not need any for example. > making being needy the condition instead of being unemployed, gives a certain incentive to staying needy This only seems to be a problem in modern Western societies that have certain social programs which people keep debating. To be more specific, just because someone is unemployed, they are not automatically immediately eligible to receive Zakat. They only take Zakat if they fall under one of the categories of people eligible to receive it. Islam encourages people not to be needy and depend on others; they should work to sustain themselves and not be a burden (e.g. https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:296 https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:296). Living one's life purposefully relying on Zakat is not something that is common (of course barring certain situations that are beyond one's control, e.g. some severe injury or an old person who has no family members left). If you look at historic accounts, there was a time during the Ummayad Caliphate where in Iraq there were no people left to take Zakat, because everyone paid their share and everyone was working. The poor class was all but eliminated.
    - eru 5y ago
      > Interesting point. As far as I'm aware though, Zakat laws do not apply to land. Only if that land is making produce, then Zakat is owed on that produce. Zakat does not apply to properties either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax Interesting! Land Value Taxes are seen as especially efficient, because they also apply to fallow land. Thus giving a strong incentive to do something with the land, instead of just 'banking' it. > Islam encourages people not to be needy and depend on others; they should work to sustain themselves and not be a burden (e.g. https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:296 https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:296). Living one's life purposefully relying on Zakat is not something that is common (of course barring certain situations that are beyond one's control, e.g. some severe injury or an old person who has no family members left). If you look at historic accounts, there was a time during the Ummayad Caliphate where in Iraq there were no people left to take Zakat, because everyone paid their share and everyone was working. The poor class was all but eliminated. These kinds of social norms are common outside of Islam as well, and very doable in smaller scale communities. It's a bit harder to keep them up when the welfare system gets administered at the level of large countries. (Though not necessarily impossible.) Of course, geographic diversification also has its advantages: even if a whole region is devastated, the rest of the country can easily pitch in. Trade-offs everywhere.