5 ms·

I would point out though that while he might have been wrong on the X1 Carbon, you still have not really dismantled the key argument - that you don't need to em

I would point out though that while he might have been wrong on the X1 Carbon, you still have not really dismantled the key argument - that you don't need to embrace soldered RAM to get laptops that are thin enough. At a certain point, you're just going to end up with an experience that is objectively worse since keyboards start having more and more give the thinner you make them (not to mention far worse feel). I'd make the trade off for more mm of thickness anyway.

morganvachon 5y ago
I wasn't trying to dismantle an argument, just pointing out that the parent had no clue what they were talking about, and a little research would make for a stronger position to argue from (and save some embarrassment). I actually prefer laptops with upgradeable components and I'm definitely weighing replacing my two aging Thinkpad laptops (running OpenBSD and Void Linux respectively) with the Framework Laptop. I had briefly considered a M1 MacBook Air but I already have a M1 Mac mini and I try to stay diverse between form factors. The specs on the Framework are fantastic; even the i5 is a powerhouse, comparable to i7 desktops from just two years ago[1]. With the modular bays I could easily have Void on the main storage and OpenBSD on a module and choose between the two. I already have compatible RAM and M.2 storage laying about so the DIY SKU is a no-brainer. As for keyboards I'm right there with you; the higher travel on the Framework's keyboard is another selling point in my opinion. [1] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8700-vs-Intel-i7-9700-vs-Intel-i5-1135G7/3099vs3477vs3830 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8700-vs-Intel-...
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  Sorry, I got the X1 carbon wrong from a list of 3 laptops off the top of my head. I must have been thinking of another Lenovo and mixed them up. What I don't understand is why you felt the need to get aggressive and diss me in 2 different posts saying I have no clue what I'm talking about or that I'm making stuff up and calling for my embarrassment, only for a small mistake, when you could have made the same arguments without the personal dissing. I feel like being kind to others, even if they're wrong, goes a longer way in productive discussions. I definitely will not be replying to you again. Have a good day sir.
  - vimacs2 5y ago
    Now that's what I call a courteous roundhouse kick to the social nads courtesy of the great Chuck Norris.
  - morganvachon 5y ago
    I don’t feel that I was aggressive at all in my direct reply to you, maybe a little in my reply to the other commenter, but obviously you took it that way and I’m genuinely sorry. It’s not an excuse, but I just get so tired of people making arguments based on false statements of fact (whether from malice or ignorance) and it moved me to speak out when it seemed like that’s what you were doing. I see now that wasn’t your intention. You’re right, we all make mistakes and I made one too.
least 5y ago
> I'd make the trade off for more mm of thickness anyway. That's great, then you can buy this modular laptop or one of many laptops that still has user upgradeable ram. Turns out you don't have to make this compromise if you don't want to and people that do can also make their own choice!
- vimacs2 5y ago
  Ah yes, the "free market" argument. Remind me of how that one went with the headphone jack. Seems I have less and less choices in that department these days, especially at the flagship tier - despite it objectively being a worse device for it with almost no positives except saving a little bit of cost for the manufacturer. I do not accept the arguments on it being necessary for water resistance or providing much saving of internal storage either - since we have devices that demonstrate how these claims are bunk. My point is that maybe there needs to be an organised pushback against this instead of pretending like customers have perfect knowledge of the drawbacks and benefits associated with a particular design decision and are not at all affected by marketing.
  - least 5y ago
    The free market is allowing a company like this one to exist because they're banking on there being enough people that care about this sort of thing to buy into their device rather than buying from a well established brand. That assumption will be put to the test very soon and advocates for this sort of device have a great opportunity to do so. The bitter reality though is that there might be a market large enough to sustain a company like this, but it won't make any big waves in the industry as a whole. Because people generally don't care. > Seems I have less and less choices in that department these days, especially at the flagship tier You're making a conscious decision about what sort of compromises you're willing to make with regards to your devices, just as everyone else is that buys electronic devices. There are plenty of phones with headphone jacks that have premium hardware specs. Sure, Apple doesn't have it. Samsung doesn't. But plenty of other manufacturers do, and people aren't buying them. Sony's top of the line smart phones have a headphone jack. LG's Vx0 line had headphone jacks and a fancy DAC built into them. ASUS's RoG phones have a headphone jack too. There's plenty of choice if it's actually that important to you. Buy those devices and hope that you can convince enough other people that the feature is as important to them as it is to you. You don't need to shit on other people's choices nor assume that they aren't informed about the choices they make to want for the things that you do.

morganvachon 5y ago

I wasn't trying to dismantle an argument, just pointing out that the parent had no clue what they were talking about, and a little research would make for a stronger position to argue from (and save some embarrassment). I actually prefer laptops with upgradeable components and I'm definitely weighing replacing my two aging Thinkpad laptops (running OpenBSD and Void Linux respectively) with the Framework Laptop. I had briefly considered a M1 MacBook Air but I already have a M1 Mac mini and I try to stay diverse between form factors. The specs on the Framework are fantastic; even the i5 is a powerhouse, comparable to i7 desktops from just two years ago[1]. With the modular bays I could easily have Void on the main storage and OpenBSD on a module and choose between the two. I already have compatible RAM and M.2 storage laying about so the DIY SKU is a no-brainer. As for keyboards I'm right there with you; the higher travel on the Framework's keyboard is another selling point in my opinion. [1] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8700-vs-Intel-i7-9700-vs-Intel-i5-1135G7/3099vs3477vs3830 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8700-vs-Intel-...

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
Sorry, I got the X1 carbon wrong from a list of 3 laptops off the top of my head. I must have been thinking of another Lenovo and mixed them up. What I don't understand is why you felt the need to get aggressive and diss me in 2 different posts saying I have no clue what I'm talking about or that I'm making stuff up and calling for my embarrassment, only for a small mistake, when you could have made the same arguments without the personal dissing. I feel like being kind to others, even if they're wrong, goes a longer way in productive discussions. I definitely will not be replying to you again. Have a good day sir.
- vimacs2 5y ago
  Now that's what I call a courteous roundhouse kick to the social nads courtesy of the great Chuck Norris.
- morganvachon 5y ago
  I don’t feel that I was aggressive at all in my direct reply to you, maybe a little in my reply to the other commenter, but obviously you took it that way and I’m genuinely sorry. It’s not an excuse, but I just get so tired of people making arguments based on false statements of fact (whether from malice or ignorance) and it moved me to speak out when it seemed like that’s what you were doing. I see now that wasn’t your intention. You’re right, we all make mistakes and I made one too.

least 5y ago

> I'd make the trade off for more mm of thickness anyway. That's great, then you can buy this modular laptop or one of many laptops that still has user upgradeable ram. Turns out you don't have to make this compromise if you don't want to and people that do can also make their own choice!

vimacs2 5y ago
Ah yes, the "free market" argument. Remind me of how that one went with the headphone jack. Seems I have less and less choices in that department these days, especially at the flagship tier - despite it objectively being a worse device for it with almost no positives except saving a little bit of cost for the manufacturer. I do not accept the arguments on it being necessary for water resistance or providing much saving of internal storage either - since we have devices that demonstrate how these claims are bunk. My point is that maybe there needs to be an organised pushback against this instead of pretending like customers have perfect knowledge of the drawbacks and benefits associated with a particular design decision and are not at all affected by marketing.
- least 5y ago
  The free market is allowing a company like this one to exist because they're banking on there being enough people that care about this sort of thing to buy into their device rather than buying from a well established brand. That assumption will be put to the test very soon and advocates for this sort of device have a great opportunity to do so. The bitter reality though is that there might be a market large enough to sustain a company like this, but it won't make any big waves in the industry as a whole. Because people generally don't care. > Seems I have less and less choices in that department these days, especially at the flagship tier You're making a conscious decision about what sort of compromises you're willing to make with regards to your devices, just as everyone else is that buys electronic devices. There are plenty of phones with headphone jacks that have premium hardware specs. Sure, Apple doesn't have it. Samsung doesn't. But plenty of other manufacturers do, and people aren't buying them. Sony's top of the line smart phones have a headphone jack. LG's Vx0 line had headphone jacks and a fancy DAC built into them. ASUS's RoG phones have a headphone jack too. There's plenty of choice if it's actually that important to you. Buy those devices and hope that you can convince enough other people that the feature is as important to them as it is to you. You don't need to shit on other people's choices nor assume that they aren't informed about the choices they make to want for the things that you do.