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We had a third option but developers very publicly refused to support it and Google worked tirelessly to hamstring it in every way they could. Now we're all cr

We had a third option but developers very publicly refused to support it and Google worked tirelessly to hamstring it in every way they could. Now we're all crying for a third platform because Apple is too restrictive and Google, surprise (to no one least of all WP users), turned out to be evil and I feel absolutely no sympathy for the tech community, particularly developers who decry the current paradigm. We chose this.

toxik 5y ago
It’s funny that we software developers have been so coddled into thinking that we don’t need unions because we get paid enough for our work. Yet we all know and see these oversteps by companies, taking away our very ability to work our trade as we see fit, piece by piece, inch by inch. I support the EFF, but that’s basically all I know how to do. Imagine if Google’s software developers went on strike every time they tried to pull another AMP on the open web?
- durovo 5y ago
  I don't understand how unions would help here. Closed platforms are in the interest of developers. Devs make a good amount of money on closed platforms like iOS. Closed platforms are not in the interest of users.
  - arvinsim 5y ago
    Developers are also users.
    - whatshisface 5y ago
      A consumer union is an interesting idea but not what people think of when you say "union." It is actually a really good idea if you think about it... if labor unions can counterbalance labor monopsonies maybe consumer unions can counterbalance monopolies.
      - nomel 5y ago
        I think the problem is that the overwhelming majority of consumers don't care at all about, or even are aware of (because they don't care), anything being discussed here. Tell a non-tech person that their data is being harvested by Google and Facebook, and see what they reaction is.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    Unions can help implement democratic processes for deciding how to work and what to work on. For example, Kickstarter unionized in 2020. One of things that initiated unionization was this lack of democratic decision making at Kickstarter[1]: > One of the changes that most angered employees was the decision to end Drip, announced in late 2018. Drip was a tool that had been developed to let creators of projects on the site start subscriptions, similar to Patreon, allowing them to build sustainable revenue streams. Eliminating the tool “came out of the blue,” Zhang says, with “no consultation” with employees who were affected. “It seemed to be at the whim of one person to just make a blanket decision,” she adds. If employees are working on projects that go against their users' interests, democratic decision making can give them a voice that they otherwise wouldn't have. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/how-kickstarter-employees-formed-union/ https://www.wired.com/story/how-kickstarter-employees-formed...
- s5300 5y ago
  Unions in top level SWE will literally never happen, at least within our lifetimes. There's simply too large of a worldwide talent pool that would drop everything to come work in the US for even 50% of what current salary/benefits are. SWE's sold their soul/morals/values for money & built evils that there's no way back from. Just have to deal with the consequences of their actions now.
  - toxik 5y ago
    I guess unions don’t happen if you pay well enough. Some sort of prisoner’s dilemma type deal.
- e40 5y ago
  and see these oversteps by companies, taking away our very ability to work our trade as we see fit I don't see how that works. As you see fit? Sounds like you need to start your own company, if that's what you want.
  - toxik 5y ago
    Then Apple decides that my app isn’t acceptable, Google decides I have to implement their special code to show up in search results, and this gave me power how exactly?
- neilparikh 5y ago
  > Imagine if Google’s software developers went on strike every time they tried to pull another AMP on the open web? I doubt a non-trivial number of developers (let alone Google Developers) care about things like the "open web".
marcodiego 5y ago
There is no reason for anyone to hope that users would have more freedom and independence if windows phone had survived. Microsoft didn't even care to persuade vendors to publish specifications or allowed the system to be downloaded by their small number of users after it was abandoned.
prepend 5y ago
Based on what’s happening with Windows, I don’t think Windows mobile would be any better for privacy than android.
- salamandersauce 5y ago
  WebOS? BB10? Meego?
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    I'd pay good money for a Palm/HP Pre or Nokia N900 reboot.
    - warble 5y ago
      Yea, Palm Pre - I had one, it was great!
  - ksec 5y ago
    > WebOS webOS 6.0 on the LG TV is surprisingly pretty damn good. I think they even opened it up for other TV manufacturers to adopt webOS.
  - warble 5y ago
    WebOS was great on the phone I had.. forget the name. I really wish it had gotten more traction. Easy for webdevs to build apps for, and still would allow lower level access for games and such.. by now it would of been really dialed in and the modern hardware would of offset performance issues.
slg 5y ago
For anyone that remember the 90s it is utterly bizarre to hear Microsoft talked about as some type of potential savior that was unfairly muscled out of the market. I don't disagree that having a third player in the space would improve things, but it is just weird how the perception of some companies change.
- Teknoman117 5y ago
  Yeah. Their contribution to Linux over the last few years always has me either giggling or suspicious. I realize that they have concrete reasons to support it considering how dominant Linux instances are on Azure, but considering the "open source is cancer" or "Linux users are communist thieves" comments from the late 90's or early 00's, it's hard to believe.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    My beef with them is more recent. Specifically, with their recent "We Love Linux" push, they are trying to kill it entirely on the desktop via the use of WSL, and now via threatening to make boot restrictions mandatory. Half of the magic of Linux is being able to run it on bare metal. Microsoft is acting against that.
    - anigbrowl 5y ago
      WSL is just good old competition at work. I run both Windows and Linux boxes but I just prefer Windows despite the various shortcomings. I've been using Linux since within a week or two of Linus' first release, and for a long time my primary machine was running Redhat, Gnome and Enlightenment - my current preference is not for lack of experience or interest. I agree with your bare metal magic point, but I also like using a GUI. As well as being middle aged I also grew up in a technological backwater. So the first arcade game I encountered was Pong and when I was old enough to start working with computers it was with dumb terminals to mainframes and punch-tape print spoolers; that experience of working with technology that was already obsolete is kinda like extra lifespan. Loving the command line is one thing, but i love GUIs precisely because I didn't have access to them early on, and being able to see things on a screen is still magical for me. I know GUI development is a lot more work, but I've been very disappointed by the snail's pace of advancement on Linux, and how little experimentation or efforts at standardization there are. GNOME these days feels like a clunky kid's toy. My most recent desktop annoyance was installing PyCharm on a a laptop running Ubuntu, and then finding that there was no obvious way to either add it to my start menu or the dock (it's built in Java and launches from a shell script, and though it shows up in the dock when it's running, there's no option to pin it there). It's not that hard (see below) but the fact that I had to go and look for a solution just speaks to how crap and broken the Linux desktop experience is by default. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/571135/pycharm-has-no-shortcut-or-launcher https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/571135/pycharm-has-... I take your point that WSL creates a new problem for Linux lovers by invalidating a default use case. And I agree that Microsoft is doing so for its own selfish reasons so it can continue to rake in billions from enterprise and OEM licensing, while the plucky Linux underdogs rely mostly on the generosity of sponsors and community spirit. But there's more to a GUI than a compositing window manager that lets you play with tiling and transparency (the last really innovative and cool thing in Linux Land, and where the idea is still implemented best). But my counter to that is that desktops matter, and Linux users are just not really trying these days. There re too many options and most of them are just not very good or even interesting. Look up one of those 'Best Linux desktops in 2021' and all you see is a bunch of OK launchers with some beautiful wallpaper, maybe a widget or two. The wallpaper is usually much cooler than the user interface it is decorating. When the packaging is more interesting than the product, the product is failing. the only distro I've seen really trying to innovate in this area is Deepin, a Chinese distro where they have really worked on the front end and is developing its own distinct visual identity. I just don't get how Linux people go into ecstasies about new way to do graphics in the terminal but then shrug their shoulders at the craptastic state of the Linux desktop. As you correctly point out, Microsoft is now making moves to draw Linux users back to their commercial platform and with their resources, experience, and tenacity may well succeed. To Linux folk who view that prospect with horror, my advice is make an environment that people like to use. The terminal is not that. The terminal is for nerds, developers, autists, and control freaks, who make up only a small portion of computer users. I match all those categories to varying degrees but even I don't want to spend my whole life in the terminal. And by 'environment people like to use' I do not mean 'imitate Windows' (although you should shamelessly pinch ideas from there). Experiment. Play. You know a great source of user interface ideas that people absolutely like to use and where you can try out wacky ideas? Videogames. People love games. They are full of eye candy. Videogames use eye candy to rapidly convey information in very intuitive ways. People can rapidly learn to perform very complex tasks when supported by a rich interface. If you don't want desktop Linux to die for lack of attention and you don't want to see Linux-on-your-own-hardware itself die for lack of users (because everything they need is available on Apple, Windows, or in the cloud), make desktop tools that look fun, futuristic, and don't keep forcing people back to the terminal.
adamrezich 5y ago
and it actually had the best UI of the three options
foobarian 5y ago
Maybe 2022 will be the year of Windows on the phone.

toxik 5y ago

It’s funny that we software developers have been so coddled into thinking that we don’t need unions because we get paid enough for our work. Yet we all know and see these oversteps by companies, taking away our very ability to work our trade as we see fit, piece by piece, inch by inch. I support the EFF, but that’s basically all I know how to do. Imagine if Google’s software developers went on strike every time they tried to pull another AMP on the open web?

durovo 5y ago
I don't understand how unions would help here. Closed platforms are in the interest of developers. Devs make a good amount of money on closed platforms like iOS. Closed platforms are not in the interest of users.
- arvinsim 5y ago
  Developers are also users.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    A consumer union is an interesting idea but not what people think of when you say "union." It is actually a really good idea if you think about it... if labor unions can counterbalance labor monopsonies maybe consumer unions can counterbalance monopolies.
    - nomel 5y ago
      I think the problem is that the overwhelming majority of consumers don't care at all about, or even are aware of (because they don't care), anything being discussed here. Tell a non-tech person that their data is being harvested by Google and Facebook, and see what they reaction is.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Unions can help implement democratic processes for deciding how to work and what to work on. For example, Kickstarter unionized in 2020. One of things that initiated unionization was this lack of democratic decision making at Kickstarter[1]: > One of the changes that most angered employees was the decision to end Drip, announced in late 2018. Drip was a tool that had been developed to let creators of projects on the site start subscriptions, similar to Patreon, allowing them to build sustainable revenue streams. Eliminating the tool “came out of the blue,” Zhang says, with “no consultation” with employees who were affected. “It seemed to be at the whim of one person to just make a blanket decision,” she adds. If employees are working on projects that go against their users' interests, democratic decision making can give them a voice that they otherwise wouldn't have. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/how-kickstarter-employees-formed-union/ https://www.wired.com/story/how-kickstarter-employees-formed...
s5300 5y ago
Unions in top level SWE will literally never happen, at least within our lifetimes. There's simply too large of a worldwide talent pool that would drop everything to come work in the US for even 50% of what current salary/benefits are. SWE's sold their soul/morals/values for money & built evils that there's no way back from. Just have to deal with the consequences of their actions now.
- toxik 5y ago
  I guess unions don’t happen if you pay well enough. Some sort of prisoner’s dilemma type deal.
e40 5y ago
and see these oversteps by companies, taking away our very ability to work our trade as we see fit I don't see how that works. As you see fit? Sounds like you need to start your own company, if that's what you want.
- toxik 5y ago
  Then Apple decides that my app isn’t acceptable, Google decides I have to implement their special code to show up in search results, and this gave me power how exactly?
neilparikh 5y ago
> Imagine if Google’s software developers went on strike every time they tried to pull another AMP on the open web? I doubt a non-trivial number of developers (let alone Google Developers) care about things like the "open web".

marcodiego 5y ago

There is no reason for anyone to hope that users would have more freedom and independence if windows phone had survived. Microsoft didn't even care to persuade vendors to publish specifications or allowed the system to be downloaded by their small number of users after it was abandoned.

prepend 5y ago

Based on what’s happening with Windows, I don’t think Windows mobile would be any better for privacy than android.

salamandersauce 5y ago
WebOS? BB10? Meego?
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  I'd pay good money for a Palm/HP Pre or Nokia N900 reboot.
  - warble 5y ago
    Yea, Palm Pre - I had one, it was great!
- ksec 5y ago
  > WebOS webOS 6.0 on the LG TV is surprisingly pretty damn good. I think they even opened it up for other TV manufacturers to adopt webOS.
- warble 5y ago
  WebOS was great on the phone I had.. forget the name. I really wish it had gotten more traction. Easy for webdevs to build apps for, and still would allow lower level access for games and such.. by now it would of been really dialed in and the modern hardware would of offset performance issues.

slg 5y ago

For anyone that remember the 90s it is utterly bizarre to hear Microsoft talked about as some type of potential savior that was unfairly muscled out of the market. I don't disagree that having a third player in the space would improve things, but it is just weird how the perception of some companies change.

Teknoman117 5y ago
Yeah. Their contribution to Linux over the last few years always has me either giggling or suspicious. I realize that they have concrete reasons to support it considering how dominant Linux instances are on Azure, but considering the "open source is cancer" or "Linux users are communist thieves" comments from the late 90's or early 00's, it's hard to believe.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  My beef with them is more recent. Specifically, with their recent "We Love Linux" push, they are trying to kill it entirely on the desktop via the use of WSL, and now via threatening to make boot restrictions mandatory. Half of the magic of Linux is being able to run it on bare metal. Microsoft is acting against that.
  - anigbrowl 5y ago
    WSL is just good old competition at work. I run both Windows and Linux boxes but I just prefer Windows despite the various shortcomings. I've been using Linux since within a week or two of Linus' first release, and for a long time my primary machine was running Redhat, Gnome and Enlightenment - my current preference is not for lack of experience or interest. I agree with your bare metal magic point, but I also like using a GUI. As well as being middle aged I also grew up in a technological backwater. So the first arcade game I encountered was Pong and when I was old enough to start working with computers it was with dumb terminals to mainframes and punch-tape print spoolers; that experience of working with technology that was already obsolete is kinda like extra lifespan. Loving the command line is one thing, but i love GUIs precisely because I didn't have access to them early on, and being able to see things on a screen is still magical for me. I know GUI development is a lot more work, but I've been very disappointed by the snail's pace of advancement on Linux, and how little experimentation or efforts at standardization there are. GNOME these days feels like a clunky kid's toy. My most recent desktop annoyance was installing PyCharm on a a laptop running Ubuntu, and then finding that there was no obvious way to either add it to my start menu or the dock (it's built in Java and launches from a shell script, and though it shows up in the dock when it's running, there's no option to pin it there). It's not that hard (see below) but the fact that I had to go and look for a solution just speaks to how crap and broken the Linux desktop experience is by default. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/571135/pycharm-has-no-shortcut-or-launcher https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/571135/pycharm-has-... I take your point that WSL creates a new problem for Linux lovers by invalidating a default use case. And I agree that Microsoft is doing so for its own selfish reasons so it can continue to rake in billions from enterprise and OEM licensing, while the plucky Linux underdogs rely mostly on the generosity of sponsors and community spirit. But there's more to a GUI than a compositing window manager that lets you play with tiling and transparency (the last really innovative and cool thing in Linux Land, and where the idea is still implemented best). But my counter to that is that desktops matter, and Linux users are just not really trying these days. There re too many options and most of them are just not very good or even interesting. Look up one of those 'Best Linux desktops in 2021' and all you see is a bunch of OK launchers with some beautiful wallpaper, maybe a widget or two. The wallpaper is usually much cooler than the user interface it is decorating. When the packaging is more interesting than the product, the product is failing. the only distro I've seen really trying to innovate in this area is Deepin, a Chinese distro where they have really worked on the front end and is developing its own distinct visual identity. I just don't get how Linux people go into ecstasies about new way to do graphics in the terminal but then shrug their shoulders at the craptastic state of the Linux desktop. As you correctly point out, Microsoft is now making moves to draw Linux users back to their commercial platform and with their resources, experience, and tenacity may well succeed. To Linux folk who view that prospect with horror, my advice is make an environment that people like to use. The terminal is not that. The terminal is for nerds, developers, autists, and control freaks, who make up only a small portion of computer users. I match all those categories to varying degrees but even I don't want to spend my whole life in the terminal. And by 'environment people like to use' I do not mean 'imitate Windows' (although you should shamelessly pinch ideas from there). Experiment. Play. You know a great source of user interface ideas that people absolutely like to use and where you can try out wacky ideas? Videogames. People love games. They are full of eye candy. Videogames use eye candy to rapidly convey information in very intuitive ways. People can rapidly learn to perform very complex tasks when supported by a rich interface. If you don't want desktop Linux to die for lack of attention and you don't want to see Linux-on-your-own-hardware itself die for lack of users (because everything they need is available on Apple, Windows, or in the cloud), make desktop tools that look fun, futuristic, and don't keep forcing people back to the terminal.

adamrezich 5y ago

and it actually had the best UI of the three options

foobarian 5y ago

Maybe 2022 will be the year of Windows on the phone.