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>What a bunch of nonsense. These are tiny laptops, and every bit of space inside is used. Soldering on RAM chips is an obvious optimization to make the laptop t

>What a bunch of nonsense. These are tiny laptops, and every bit of space inside is used. Soldering on RAM chips is an obvious optimization to make the laptop thinner. THIS is nonsense. Dell, HP, Lenovo, even Fujitsu-Siemens have been making thin laptops with upgradable RAM for years now (XPS, X1 Carbon and LIFEBOOK series come to mind). Just recently they abandoned this and moved to soldering everything. The Framework Laptop also has upgradable everything and it's not super thick now, is it? Sure, if you want to set a world record for thinness just because, then sure, soldering everything saves you a couple of mm but it's not why they do it in most cases, but to force planned obsolescence.

raffraffraff 5y ago
Who's got the balls to disagree with Chuck Norris? I would usually go for a smaller, lighter laptop (13"). But within that form factor, given choice over trade offs, I would put performance last (any modern system will usually do), size and weight somewhere in the middle, battery life and repairability at the top.
morganvachon 5y ago
> Dell, HP, Lenovo, even Fujitsu-Siemens have been making thin laptops with upgradable RAM for years now (XPS, X1 Carbon... You're just throwing names out there without even knowing what you're talking about. The very first generation X1 Carbon came with soldered RAM and no upgrade path, and that hasn't changed yet. I know this because I've owned several generations of that laptop. I just checked Wikipedia to back up my memory before posting and yes, every X1 Carbon has had soldered RAM going all the way back to the first generation with Ivy Bridge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_X1_series#X1_Carbon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_X1_series#X1_Carbon
- vimacs2 5y ago
  I would point out though that while he might have been wrong on the X1 Carbon, you still have not really dismantled the key argument - that you don't need to embrace soldered RAM to get laptops that are thin enough. At a certain point, you're just going to end up with an experience that is objectively worse since keyboards start having more and more give the thinner you make them (not to mention far worse feel). I'd make the trade off for more mm of thickness anyway.
  - morganvachon 5y ago
    I wasn't trying to dismantle an argument, just pointing out that the parent had no clue what they were talking about, and a little research would make for a stronger position to argue from (and save some embarrassment). I actually prefer laptops with upgradeable components and I'm definitely weighing replacing my two aging Thinkpad laptops (running OpenBSD and Void Linux respectively) with the Framework Laptop. I had briefly considered a M1 MacBook Air but I already have a M1 Mac mini and I try to stay diverse between form factors. The specs on the Framework are fantastic; even the i5 is a powerhouse, comparable to i7 desktops from just two years ago[1]. With the modular bays I could easily have Void on the main storage and OpenBSD on a module and choose between the two. I already have compatible RAM and M.2 storage laying about so the DIY SKU is a no-brainer. As for keyboards I'm right there with you; the higher travel on the Framework's keyboard is another selling point in my opinion. [1] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8700-vs-Intel-i7-9700-vs-Intel-i5-1135G7/3099vs3477vs3830 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8700-vs-Intel-...
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      Sorry, I got the X1 carbon wrong from a list of 3 laptops off the top of my head. I must have been thinking of another Lenovo and mixed them up. What I don't understand is why you felt the need to get aggressive and diss me in 2 different posts saying I have no clue what I'm talking about or that I'm making stuff up and calling for my embarrassment, only for a small mistake, when you could have made the same arguments without the personal dissing. I feel like being kind to others, even if they're wrong, goes a longer way in productive discussions. I definitely will not be replying to you again. Have a good day sir.
      - vimacs2 5y ago
        Now that's what I call a courteous roundhouse kick to the social nads courtesy of the great Chuck Norris.
      - morganvachon 5y ago
        I don’t feel that I was aggressive at all in my direct reply to you, maybe a little in my reply to the other commenter, but obviously you took it that way and I’m genuinely sorry. It’s not an excuse, but I just get so tired of people making arguments based on false statements of fact (whether from malice or ignorance) and it moved me to speak out when it seemed like that’s what you were doing. I see now that wasn’t your intention. You’re right, we all make mistakes and I made one too.
- oldandboring 5y ago
  A better example would probably be the Lenovo T-series. Recent models eg. T490s have soldered RAM, but if you go back to eg. T460s there were DIMM sockets for upgrading, and the laptop was quite thin. But, that was 5 years ago already.
  - Multicomp 5y ago
    I too am dismayed by how older models of thin laptops lost DIMM sockets for increasingly diminishing amounts of thickness removed. I ended up going with the below because I wanted a 360 degree touchscreen Ryzen laptop that I could upgrade the HD and RAM...and I felt like I was searching for a needle in a haystack. Shame on you Dell for never offering Ryzen in your convertibles. Shame on you HP for soldering RAM in your new Elitebook line. https://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-ProBook-x360-435-G7-laptop-review-AMD-Ryzen-also-shines-in-the-business-convertible.494446.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-ProBook-x360-435-G7-laptop-...

raffraffraff 5y ago

Who's got the balls to disagree with Chuck Norris? I would usually go for a smaller, lighter laptop (13"). But within that form factor, given choice over trade offs, I would put performance last (any modern system will usually do), size and weight somewhere in the middle, battery life and repairability at the top.

morganvachon 5y ago

> Dell, HP, Lenovo, even Fujitsu-Siemens have been making thin laptops with upgradable RAM for years now (XPS, X1 Carbon... You're just throwing names out there without even knowing what you're talking about. The very first generation X1 Carbon came with soldered RAM and no upgrade path, and that hasn't changed yet. I know this because I've owned several generations of that laptop. I just checked Wikipedia to back up my memory before posting and yes, every X1 Carbon has had soldered RAM going all the way back to the first generation with Ivy Bridge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_X1_series#X1_Carbon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_X1_series#X1_Carbon

vimacs2 5y ago
I would point out though that while he might have been wrong on the X1 Carbon, you still have not really dismantled the key argument - that you don't need to embrace soldered RAM to get laptops that are thin enough. At a certain point, you're just going to end up with an experience that is objectively worse since keyboards start having more and more give the thinner you make them (not to mention far worse feel). I'd make the trade off for more mm of thickness anyway.
- morganvachon 5y ago
  I wasn't trying to dismantle an argument, just pointing out that the parent had no clue what they were talking about, and a little research would make for a stronger position to argue from (and save some embarrassment). I actually prefer laptops with upgradeable components and I'm definitely weighing replacing my two aging Thinkpad laptops (running OpenBSD and Void Linux respectively) with the Framework Laptop. I had briefly considered a M1 MacBook Air but I already have a M1 Mac mini and I try to stay diverse between form factors. The specs on the Framework are fantastic; even the i5 is a powerhouse, comparable to i7 desktops from just two years ago[1]. With the modular bays I could easily have Void on the main storage and OpenBSD on a module and choose between the two. I already have compatible RAM and M.2 storage laying about so the DIY SKU is a no-brainer. As for keyboards I'm right there with you; the higher travel on the Framework's keyboard is another selling point in my opinion. [1] https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8700-vs-Intel-i7-9700-vs-Intel-i5-1135G7/3099vs3477vs3830 https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8700-vs-Intel-...
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    Sorry, I got the X1 carbon wrong from a list of 3 laptops off the top of my head. I must have been thinking of another Lenovo and mixed them up. What I don't understand is why you felt the need to get aggressive and diss me in 2 different posts saying I have no clue what I'm talking about or that I'm making stuff up and calling for my embarrassment, only for a small mistake, when you could have made the same arguments without the personal dissing. I feel like being kind to others, even if they're wrong, goes a longer way in productive discussions. I definitely will not be replying to you again. Have a good day sir.
    - vimacs2 5y ago
      Now that's what I call a courteous roundhouse kick to the social nads courtesy of the great Chuck Norris.
    - morganvachon 5y ago
      I don’t feel that I was aggressive at all in my direct reply to you, maybe a little in my reply to the other commenter, but obviously you took it that way and I’m genuinely sorry. It’s not an excuse, but I just get so tired of people making arguments based on false statements of fact (whether from malice or ignorance) and it moved me to speak out when it seemed like that’s what you were doing. I see now that wasn’t your intention. You’re right, we all make mistakes and I made one too.
oldandboring 5y ago
A better example would probably be the Lenovo T-series. Recent models eg. T490s have soldered RAM, but if you go back to eg. T460s there were DIMM sockets for upgrading, and the laptop was quite thin. But, that was 5 years ago already.
- Multicomp 5y ago
  I too am dismayed by how older models of thin laptops lost DIMM sockets for increasingly diminishing amounts of thickness removed. I ended up going with the below because I wanted a 360 degree touchscreen Ryzen laptop that I could upgrade the HD and RAM...and I felt like I was searching for a needle in a haystack. Shame on you Dell for never offering Ryzen in your convertibles. Shame on you HP for soldering RAM in your new Elitebook line. https://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-ProBook-x360-435-G7-laptop-review-AMD-Ryzen-also-shines-in-the-business-convertible.494446.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-ProBook-x360-435-G7-laptop-...