5 ms·

CSX 8888 Runaway Investigation (2001)

42 points by Lammy 5y ago

peterburkimsher 5y ago
There's a pretty good film about this runaway train! It's a good thing it didn't derail with hazardous chemicals on board. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstoppable_(2010_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstoppable_(2010_film)
- sdoering 5y ago
  > It is loosely based on the real-life CSX 8888 incident, telling the story of a runaway freight train and the two men who attempt to stop it. It was the last film Tony Scott directed before his death.
- EE84M3i 5y ago
  For what it is, this movie is surprisingly good.
matthewmacleod 5y ago
If you find this sort of analysis interesting, the UK's Rail Accident Investigation Branch publishes reports into all serious incidents on the UK railway system – with the main focus on identifying ways to prevent similar accidents in the future. I've always thought these were a pretty good example of root-cause analysis of failures that much of the software industry could learn from. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/rail-accident-investigation-branch https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/rail-accident-in...
- teh_klev 5y ago
  This was quite an interesting event that happened recently in Scotland: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/676754/180111_R012018_Markinch.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Basically the train lost the ability to brake and effectively rolled backwards and forwards over a 4.7 mile section of track, with gradients on either end, until it came to a stop in the lowest section of the line see page 11).
thirteenfingers 5y ago
"The air hoses between the locomotive and the cars were not connected, as is normal during this kind of switching operation. The air brakes on the cars were therefore inoperative." This part confuses me. I was under the impression that modern train air brakes are fail-safe, i.e. pressure will release the brakes, no pressure will result in them being applied, so that the cars couldn't be moved in the first place without the air hoses between locomotive and cars being connected. Can someone with a better understanding of rail operation help me out here?
- p_l 5y ago
  From my understanding, most modern vacuum brakes involve two pressure loops with two cylinders on each brake. When connected and operating, one cylinder is responsible for brake force and the other acts as counter to it - in case of disconnect, the countering cylinder evacuates fast and results in braking. However, if the system is not "primed" (for example after longer stay disconnected which gets both cylinders empty) the brakes are inoperational except for manual mechanical brake one is supposed to apply for any longer stay.
- fredoralive 5y ago
  The air brake system is fail safe against accidental disconnection. You can intentionally get around it if needed. Obviously they did something like that here, expecting it to be a safe setup for low speed shunting in a yard...
  - flyinghamster 5y ago
    Also, fail-safe only works so far. A parked car needs to have handbrakes set or wheels chocked, since the air can eventually bleed out of the reservoir and release the brakes. The Lac-Mégantic disaster [0] involved insufficient handbrakes set on a train parked on a grade. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaste...
  - msisk6 5y ago
    All US rail freight cars have a "bleed rod" that releases all the air in the brake system so you can move cars for switching. Most large railroad yards nowadays are "hump yards" where a locomotive pushes cars over a small hill and they roll down the though a series of switches with a computer monitoring their progress and activating rail mounted brakes that squeeze the sides of the wheels so they roll into other cars at a controlled speed to make up trains. Smaller yards, like in this story of the runaway, are "flat switched" where a locomotive and man power manually do all this work to put a train together. Back before railroads started reducing train crews the engineer wouldn't need to get out to align switches; they had a "switchman" who would get out and align the switches as needed.
rgj 5y ago
I am surprised there apparently is no dead man’s switch in these locomotives.
- flyinghamster 5y ago
  There is one, but it was rendered ineffective by the engineer's application of the independent brakes on the locomotive. This is another one of those classic cascades of errors, with each mistake paving the way for the next. It just floors me that he didn't come to a complete stop before disembarking the locomotive.
  - michaelt 5y ago
    I'm surprised there's not a dead man's switch which reliably brings the train to a halt in these locomotives :)
    - foobarian 5y ago
      Like a RFID tag or something on the engineer, that would let the train shut down if not found. Of course the engineer might accidentally leave that in the cabin.
      - wolrah 5y ago
        The biggest problem with failsafes of that nature is that they get disabled, either because the users find them annoying day-to-day or because something in the system failed in the field and getting the equipment back in service was prioritized over maintaining all safety checks. Most dump trucks have alarms that will go off if the bed is raised while moving and some modern ones can even limit speed while the bed is raised (there are plenty of legitimate uses for driving slowly with the bed up), yet it seems like we don't go a month without someone slamming one in to a bridge.
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    The problem was the misaligned switch. He was attempting to avoid damage, and was under the impression that the train was stopping.
Pyramus 5y ago
There was a recent incident in Germany in 2019 [1]. A runaway train loaded with timber travelled some 94 km through Germany. Operators were able to clear all tracks on the way so miraculously no injuries whatsoever. [1] (German) https://www.merkur.de/bayern/zug-in-bayern-ausser-kontrolle-verdacht-richtet-sich-gegen-lokfuehrer-zr-12948559.html https://www.merkur.de/bayern/zug-in-bayern-ausser-kontrolle-...
- Akronymus 5y ago
  I wouldn't say "miraculously" (Because it makes it sound like it isn't normal for no injuries). Safety regs are strict exactly to prevent injuries/deaths. Still deserves a lot of respect though.
ryanmarsh 5y ago
The engineer was drug for 80 feet but there were no OSHA reportables… hrmmm
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Being dragged 80ft because you're voluntarily doing something against the rules (don't attempt to board a moving train is like 1950s level workplace safety stuff, everyone has it on the books) isn't considered an event worth mentioning in the kind of workplace where people get turned into pancakes if they're not careful. It was 2001, OSHA was much more amenable to internal handling of these kinds of things back then.
- kayfox 5y ago
  It sounds like they got dragged 80 feet without a reportable injury. The incident itself was reportable to the FRA.
SahAssar 5y ago
This accident was a question on citation needed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmAdG9YNkTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmAdG9YNkTE

42 points by Lammy 5y ago

There's a pretty good film about this runaway train! It's a good thing it didn't derail with hazardous chemicals on board. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstoppable_(2010_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstoppable_(2010_film)

sdoering 5y ago
> It is loosely based on the real-life CSX 8888 incident, telling the story of a runaway freight train and the two men who attempt to stop it. It was the last film Tony Scott directed before his death.
EE84M3i 5y ago
For what it is, this movie is surprisingly good.

matthewmacleod 5y ago

If you find this sort of analysis interesting, the UK's Rail Accident Investigation Branch publishes reports into all serious incidents on the UK railway system – with the main focus on identifying ways to prevent similar accidents in the future. I've always thought these were a pretty good example of root-cause analysis of failures that much of the software industry could learn from. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/rail-accident-investigation-branch https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/rail-accident-in...

teh_klev 5y ago
This was quite an interesting event that happened recently in Scotland: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/676754/180111_R012018_Markinch.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Basically the train lost the ability to brake and effectively rolled backwards and forwards over a 4.7 mile section of track, with gradients on either end, until it came to a stop in the lowest section of the line see page 11).

thirteenfingers 5y ago

"The air hoses between the locomotive and the cars were not connected, as is normal during this kind of switching operation. The air brakes on the cars were therefore inoperative." This part confuses me. I was under the impression that modern train air brakes are fail-safe, i.e. pressure will release the brakes, no pressure will result in them being applied, so that the cars couldn't be moved in the first place without the air hoses between locomotive and cars being connected. Can someone with a better understanding of rail operation help me out here?

p_l 5y ago
From my understanding, most modern vacuum brakes involve two pressure loops with two cylinders on each brake. When connected and operating, one cylinder is responsible for brake force and the other acts as counter to it - in case of disconnect, the countering cylinder evacuates fast and results in braking. However, if the system is not "primed" (for example after longer stay disconnected which gets both cylinders empty) the brakes are inoperational except for manual mechanical brake one is supposed to apply for any longer stay.
fredoralive 5y ago
The air brake system is fail safe against accidental disconnection. You can intentionally get around it if needed. Obviously they did something like that here, expecting it to be a safe setup for low speed shunting in a yard...
- flyinghamster 5y ago
  Also, fail-safe only works so far. A parked car needs to have handbrakes set or wheels chocked, since the air can eventually bleed out of the reservoir and release the brakes. The Lac-Mégantic disaster [0] involved insufficient handbrakes set on a train parked on a grade. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaste...
- msisk6 5y ago
  All US rail freight cars have a "bleed rod" that releases all the air in the brake system so you can move cars for switching. Most large railroad yards nowadays are "hump yards" where a locomotive pushes cars over a small hill and they roll down the though a series of switches with a computer monitoring their progress and activating rail mounted brakes that squeeze the sides of the wheels so they roll into other cars at a controlled speed to make up trains. Smaller yards, like in this story of the runaway, are "flat switched" where a locomotive and man power manually do all this work to put a train together. Back before railroads started reducing train crews the engineer wouldn't need to get out to align switches; they had a "switchman" who would get out and align the switches as needed.

rgj 5y ago

I am surprised there apparently is no dead man’s switch in these locomotives.

flyinghamster 5y ago
There is one, but it was rendered ineffective by the engineer's application of the independent brakes on the locomotive. This is another one of those classic cascades of errors, with each mistake paving the way for the next. It just floors me that he didn't come to a complete stop before disembarking the locomotive.
- michaelt 5y ago
  I'm surprised there's not a dead man's switch which reliably brings the train to a halt in these locomotives :)
  - foobarian 5y ago
    Like a RFID tag or something on the engineer, that would let the train shut down if not found. Of course the engineer might accidentally leave that in the cabin.
    - wolrah 5y ago
      The biggest problem with failsafes of that nature is that they get disabled, either because the users find them annoying day-to-day or because something in the system failed in the field and getting the equipment back in service was prioritized over maintaining all safety checks. Most dump trucks have alarms that will go off if the bed is raised while moving and some modern ones can even limit speed while the bed is raised (there are plenty of legitimate uses for driving slowly with the bed up), yet it seems like we don't go a month without someone slamming one in to a bridge.
- jtbayly 5y ago
  The problem was the misaligned switch. He was attempting to avoid damage, and was under the impression that the train was stopping.

Pyramus 5y ago

There was a recent incident in Germany in 2019 [1]. A runaway train loaded with timber travelled some 94 km through Germany. Operators were able to clear all tracks on the way so miraculously no injuries whatsoever. [1] (German) https://www.merkur.de/bayern/zug-in-bayern-ausser-kontrolle-verdacht-richtet-sich-gegen-lokfuehrer-zr-12948559.html https://www.merkur.de/bayern/zug-in-bayern-ausser-kontrolle-...

Akronymus 5y ago
I wouldn't say "miraculously" (Because it makes it sound like it isn't normal for no injuries). Safety regs are strict exactly to prevent injuries/deaths. Still deserves a lot of respect though.

ryanmarsh 5y ago

The engineer was drug for 80 feet but there were no OSHA reportables… hrmmm

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Being dragged 80ft because you're voluntarily doing something against the rules (don't attempt to board a moving train is like 1950s level workplace safety stuff, everyone has it on the books) isn't considered an event worth mentioning in the kind of workplace where people get turned into pancakes if they're not careful. It was 2001, OSHA was much more amenable to internal handling of these kinds of things back then.
kayfox 5y ago
It sounds like they got dragged 80 feet without a reportable injury. The incident itself was reportable to the FRA.

SahAssar 5y ago

This accident was a question on citation needed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmAdG9YNkTE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmAdG9YNkTE