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It's disturbing that our intelligence apparatus seems unable to accept the obvious conclusion that Havana Syndrome is mass hysteria. I fear they're caught in so

It's disturbing that our intelligence apparatus seems unable to accept the obvious conclusion that Havana Syndrome is mass hysteria. I fear they're caught in some sort of loop where investigating it _creates_ cases, which increases their certainty, which causes them to allocate more resources to investigating it, etc.

tehjoker 5y ago
Maybe. They are also possibly just ginning up more reasons to block normalizing relations with Cuba.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  The fact they're a fascist dictatorship is reason enough. No need to "gin" up anything.
  - favorited 5y ago
    The US has diplomatic and economic relationships with plenty of oppressive regimes around the world, not sure why Cuba should be an exception. Aside from some 60-year-old egg on their face related to failed coup attempts, that is (though in this case, bacon may be the better breakfast food analogy).
- salt-thrower 5y ago
  You're being downvoted as if the U.S. intelligence apparatus hasn't done this before. Using media statements to sway public opinion on specific issues is a standard part of their playbook and has been for decades.
  - brianberns 5y ago
    Using media statements to sway public opinion is… a totally normal thing for organizations to do.
    - salt-thrower 5y ago
      Exactly. And yet people in this thread are arguing against the idea that the CIA would do it.
- kevinh 5y ago
  This quote seems to suggest that they've ruled Cuba out: > The director says he is seriously considering the "very strong possibility" that the syndrome is the result of intentional actions, adding that there are a limited number of "potential suspects" with the capability to carry out an action so widely across the globe.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Maybe. They are also possibly just ginning up more reasons to block normalizing relations with Cuba. Except, IIRC: 1. they didn't take the reports seriously at first, 2. they ruled out the Cubans fairly quickly, and 3. that may have been a goal of Trump, but he's not president anymore.
walrus01 5y ago
except that advanced neuroimaging has shown otherwise: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552 https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2019/july/advanced-neuroimaging-brain-matter-alterations-gov-personnel-developed-neurological-symptoms-cuba https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2019/july/ad... this is not just a mass hysteria/placebo/negative-placebo effect. "Among patients compared with controls, there were significantly greater ventral diencephalon and cerebellar gray matter volumes and significantly smaller frontal, occipital, and parietal lobe white matter volumes; significantly lower mean diffusivity in the inferior vermis of the cerebellum (patients: 7.71 × 10−4 mm2/s; controls: 8.98 × 10−4 mm2/s; difference, −1.27 × 10−4 [95% CI, −1.93 × 10−4 to −6.17 × 10−5] mm2/s; P < .001); and significantly lower mean functional connectivity in the auditory subnetwork (patients: 0.45; controls: 0.61; difference, −0.16 [95% CI, −0.26 to −0.05]; P = .003) and visuospatial subnetwork (patients: 0.30; controls: 0.40; difference, −0.10 [95% CI, −0.16 to −0.04]; P = .002) but not in the executive control subnetwork (patients: 0.24; controls: 0.25; difference: −0.016 [95% CI, −0.04 to 0.01]; P = .23).
- maxbond 5y ago
  I don't have the expertise to critique these findings, but they smell very weird (tiny sample size, control group that seems weirdly specific), and "an investigation that seems incredibly motivated by a particular conclusion managed to find the evidence it was looking for" still makes a lot more sense than, "some organization is injuring US diplomats, all over the world, with no clear goals or demands, with a wide constellation of symptoms, that an awful lot like mass hysteria." If there's really a there there and they solve the "who, what, why", then I'm happy to eat crow. But I don't think they will because I don't think there is.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > I don't have the expertise to critique these findings, but they smell very weird (tiny sample size, control group that seems weirdly specific) Huh? I think you're misunderstanding the situation here and misapplying a heuristic. That sample size of 40 people may be the universe of cases (at the time) or a significant fraction of it, and I don't know what could be "weirdly specific" about "48 demographically similar healthy controls."
unclekev 5y ago
I don't think it's 'mass hysteria' - There is lots of evidence that suggests whatever people were exposed to caused some form of brain damage confirmed by MRI scans.[0] They just cant figure out exactly what caused it. I think a recent study pointed towards pesticides, but the evidence was pretty lacking. I really doubt that 'mass hysteria' is causing people to get brain damage that shows up on MRI scans. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6652163/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6652163/
- cpncrunch 5y ago
  Between-group differences in grey matter are not brain damage.
- anaphor 5y ago
  That is complete nonsense. The study you're quoting was discredited. They essentially grouped a bunch of random symptoms together and said they were the same thing. If you run enough tests for different things you'll eventually find something "wrong", that doesn't mean there actually is.
seppin 5y ago
People can't walk, have semi or permanent headaches, have to retire early, etc. And you are convinced hundreds of people are making this up?
boomboomsubban 5y ago
>It's disturbing that our intelligence apparatus seems unable to accept the obvious conclusion that Havana Syndrome is mass hysteria They are intentionally ignoring the possibility. The major report released by the government claiming microwave attacks was the most likely stated that a psychogenic cause fit all available evidence but they lacked the psychiatric evaluations to call it the cause.
Angostura 5y ago
That was one of the most talked about hypotheses at the time of the Cuba incident.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fortuna86 5y ago
People can't walk, have semi or permanent headaches, have to retire early, etc. People's families (including children) have been seriously ill as well. And you are convinced hundreds of people are making this up?

tehjoker 5y ago

Maybe. They are also possibly just ginning up more reasons to block normalizing relations with Cuba.

CountDrewku 5y ago
The fact they're a fascist dictatorship is reason enough. No need to "gin" up anything.
- favorited 5y ago
  The US has diplomatic and economic relationships with plenty of oppressive regimes around the world, not sure why Cuba should be an exception. Aside from some 60-year-old egg on their face related to failed coup attempts, that is (though in this case, bacon may be the better breakfast food analogy).
salt-thrower 5y ago
You're being downvoted as if the U.S. intelligence apparatus hasn't done this before. Using media statements to sway public opinion on specific issues is a standard part of their playbook and has been for decades.
- brianberns 5y ago
  Using media statements to sway public opinion is… a totally normal thing for organizations to do.
  - salt-thrower 5y ago
    Exactly. And yet people in this thread are arguing against the idea that the CIA would do it.
kevinh 5y ago
This quote seems to suggest that they've ruled Cuba out: > The director says he is seriously considering the "very strong possibility" that the syndrome is the result of intentional actions, adding that there are a limited number of "potential suspects" with the capability to carry out an action so widely across the globe.
tablespoon 5y ago
> Maybe. They are also possibly just ginning up more reasons to block normalizing relations with Cuba. Except, IIRC: 1. they didn't take the reports seriously at first, 2. they ruled out the Cubans fairly quickly, and 3. that may have been a goal of Trump, but he's not president anymore.

walrus01 5y ago

except that advanced neuroimaging has shown otherwise: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552 https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2019/july/advanced-neuroimaging-brain-matter-alterations-gov-personnel-developed-neurological-symptoms-cuba https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2019/july/ad... this is not just a mass hysteria/placebo/negative-placebo effect. "Among patients compared with controls, there were significantly greater ventral diencephalon and cerebellar gray matter volumes and significantly smaller frontal, occipital, and parietal lobe white matter volumes; significantly lower mean diffusivity in the inferior vermis of the cerebellum (patients: 7.71 × 10−4 mm2/s; controls: 8.98 × 10−4 mm2/s; difference, −1.27 × 10−4 [95% CI, −1.93 × 10−4 to −6.17 × 10−5] mm2/s; P < .001); and significantly lower mean functional connectivity in the auditory subnetwork (patients: 0.45; controls: 0.61; difference, −0.16 [95% CI, −0.26 to −0.05]; P = .003) and visuospatial subnetwork (patients: 0.30; controls: 0.40; difference, −0.10 [95% CI, −0.16 to −0.04]; P = .002) but not in the executive control subnetwork (patients: 0.24; controls: 0.25; difference: −0.016 [95% CI, −0.04 to 0.01]; P = .23).

maxbond 5y ago
I don't have the expertise to critique these findings, but they smell very weird (tiny sample size, control group that seems weirdly specific), and "an investigation that seems incredibly motivated by a particular conclusion managed to find the evidence it was looking for" still makes a lot more sense than, "some organization is injuring US diplomats, all over the world, with no clear goals or demands, with a wide constellation of symptoms, that an awful lot like mass hysteria." If there's really a there there and they solve the "who, what, why", then I'm happy to eat crow. But I don't think they will because I don't think there is.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > I don't have the expertise to critique these findings, but they smell very weird (tiny sample size, control group that seems weirdly specific) Huh? I think you're misunderstanding the situation here and misapplying a heuristic. That sample size of 40 people may be the universe of cases (at the time) or a significant fraction of it, and I don't know what could be "weirdly specific" about "48 demographically similar healthy controls."

unclekev 5y ago

I don't think it's 'mass hysteria' - There is lots of evidence that suggests whatever people were exposed to caused some form of brain damage confirmed by MRI scans.[0] They just cant figure out exactly what caused it. I think a recent study pointed towards pesticides, but the evidence was pretty lacking. I really doubt that 'mass hysteria' is causing people to get brain damage that shows up on MRI scans. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6652163/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6652163/

cpncrunch 5y ago
Between-group differences in grey matter are not brain damage.
anaphor 5y ago
That is complete nonsense. The study you're quoting was discredited. They essentially grouped a bunch of random symptoms together and said they were the same thing. If you run enough tests for different things you'll eventually find something "wrong", that doesn't mean there actually is.

seppin 5y ago

People can't walk, have semi or permanent headaches, have to retire early, etc. And you are convinced hundreds of people are making this up?

boomboomsubban 5y ago

>It's disturbing that our intelligence apparatus seems unable to accept the obvious conclusion that Havana Syndrome is mass hysteria They are intentionally ignoring the possibility. The major report released by the government claiming microwave attacks was the most likely stated that a psychogenic cause fit all available evidence but they lacked the psychiatric evaluations to call it the cause.

Angostura 5y ago

That was one of the most talked about hypotheses at the time of the Cuba incident.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fortuna86 5y ago

People can't walk, have semi or permanent headaches, have to retire early, etc. People's families (including children) have been seriously ill as well. And you are convinced hundreds of people are making this up?