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Excel has its flaws, as do spreadsheets in general, but the upside is that spreadsheets allow people to become programmers who never would grok programming in p

Excel has its flaws, as do spreadsheets in general, but the upside is that spreadsheets allow people to become programmers who never would grok programming in purely abstract terms. Spreadsheets allow the user to see each intermediate state in their application, as well as each iteration over the input data set, laid out in a 2-dimensional grid. There just isn't any substitute I've seen that is as accessible to the computing "layperson."

asdff 5y ago
I really don't think excel is accessible. I don't know how to do anything in it. If I had to make a plot I'd have to search for an article that would probably be about the same word length as the one I'd find searching "how to make a plot in python." Imo excel isn't easier for the lay person, it's just entrenched because you have people now in the workforce using excel since windows 95. It allows people to become programmers by making them learn this clumsy tough gui that isn't readily apparent how anything works, and changes between versions. I don't think the learning curve is any easier than what it would take to make a person actually into a programmer with a language like python or R. A two hour tutorial in either language is probably all you need to do 90% of what people use excel for. Why not just skip the abstraction and learn how to actually program if you have to spend time learning how to faux program in excel anyway?
- CJefferson 5y ago
  In excel, I can make a plot by typing in my numbers, then clicking the 'plot' button. Excel shows a selection of plots of my data and lets me choose the one I like the most. To do that in Python, I'd have to first choose a format to enter my numbers (I'd probably use Excel, then export CSV). Then I have to install Python, pip install a graphing library, import the CSV, then plot. I have to go through the different types of plots one by one. I've taught python and graphing, you need much more than a 2 hour lesson before people can be left alone without help I'm afraid, if they have zero programming experience. I don't claim Excel is good programming practice, or scalable, but it is much easier than Python or R. The best future thing (I think) would be an excel like interface which would show you, and let you edit, Python that did what you'd just chosen in the GUI.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  Because the layperson I'm talking about can't think in terms of abstractions, kind of like a math student who hasn't learned algebra yet. They can only verify the correctness of their algorithm by inspecting the intermediate values at every step, and scrolling down through the input set to inspect the corner cases. The problems with this approach are extremely obvious (which is why spreadsheets error out so often, or even worse, produce the wrong answer without any visible errors), but in many cases this is the only way for the people with the domain knowledge of what needs to be done to build an application to meet their need (they don't know how to code and they don't know how to write a functional spec).
  - ncphil 5y ago
    This is a really important point that underscores the persistent tech education gap that exists across our economies. Mike Duncan observed some time ago that our politicians can barely handle e-mail on their own, making them particularly vulnerable to infrastructure disruption. Low and behold, we've now got an army of firms _legally trading_ in tools whose only purpose is to disrupt (or capture) infrastructure.
- newbie2020 5y ago
  Conversely, I am a professional programmer and I haven’t found any easier way to plot your data. What could be easier than highlight your data, insert, scatter chart?
  - lightbendover 5y ago
    I get paid way too much to develop software, but most of what I actually do is work with data in Excel. There is no easier way to get quick answers on a small amount of data regardless of skill level with alternatives and the ability to then share those answers and the work leading to them with non-technical stakeholders is what really separates Excel from the "just use Python/awk/Jupyter/ad hoc solution X" sprinkled all over this thread. With Excel, there is a single solution that works for me, my engineers, my PM, my program manager, my account team, my customers, and my finance stakeholders. Asking any of those parties outside of engineering to go learn R would be quite embarrassing.

asdff 5y ago

I really don't think excel is accessible. I don't know how to do anything in it. If I had to make a plot I'd have to search for an article that would probably be about the same word length as the one I'd find searching "how to make a plot in python." Imo excel isn't easier for the lay person, it's just entrenched because you have people now in the workforce using excel since windows 95. It allows people to become programmers by making them learn this clumsy tough gui that isn't readily apparent how anything works, and changes between versions. I don't think the learning curve is any easier than what it would take to make a person actually into a programmer with a language like python or R. A two hour tutorial in either language is probably all you need to do 90% of what people use excel for. Why not just skip the abstraction and learn how to actually program if you have to spend time learning how to faux program in excel anyway?

CJefferson 5y ago
In excel, I can make a plot by typing in my numbers, then clicking the 'plot' button. Excel shows a selection of plots of my data and lets me choose the one I like the most. To do that in Python, I'd have to first choose a format to enter my numbers (I'd probably use Excel, then export CSV). Then I have to install Python, pip install a graphing library, import the CSV, then plot. I have to go through the different types of plots one by one. I've taught python and graphing, you need much more than a 2 hour lesson before people can be left alone without help I'm afraid, if they have zero programming experience. I don't claim Excel is good programming practice, or scalable, but it is much easier than Python or R. The best future thing (I think) would be an excel like interface which would show you, and let you edit, Python that did what you'd just chosen in the GUI.
spoonjim 5y ago
Because the layperson I'm talking about can't think in terms of abstractions, kind of like a math student who hasn't learned algebra yet. They can only verify the correctness of their algorithm by inspecting the intermediate values at every step, and scrolling down through the input set to inspect the corner cases. The problems with this approach are extremely obvious (which is why spreadsheets error out so often, or even worse, produce the wrong answer without any visible errors), but in many cases this is the only way for the people with the domain knowledge of what needs to be done to build an application to meet their need (they don't know how to code and they don't know how to write a functional spec).
- ncphil 5y ago
  This is a really important point that underscores the persistent tech education gap that exists across our economies. Mike Duncan observed some time ago that our politicians can barely handle e-mail on their own, making them particularly vulnerable to infrastructure disruption. Low and behold, we've now got an army of firms _legally trading_ in tools whose only purpose is to disrupt (or capture) infrastructure.
newbie2020 5y ago
Conversely, I am a professional programmer and I haven’t found any easier way to plot your data. What could be easier than highlight your data, insert, scatter chart?
- lightbendover 5y ago
  I get paid way too much to develop software, but most of what I actually do is work with data in Excel. There is no easier way to get quick answers on a small amount of data regardless of skill level with alternatives and the ability to then share those answers and the work leading to them with non-technical stakeholders is what really separates Excel from the "just use Python/awk/Jupyter/ad hoc solution X" sprinkled all over this thread. With Excel, there is a single solution that works for me, my engineers, my PM, my program manager, my account team, my customers, and my finance stakeholders. Asking any of those parties outside of engineering to go learn R would be quite embarrassing.