3 ms·

Most dangerous tools are predictable in their danger. Take firearms; modern firearms are reliable[0] and tend to do exactly what their current handler intends.

Most dangerous tools are predictable in their danger. Take firearms; modern firearms are reliable[0] and tend to do exactly what their current handler intends. You would not for example expect your firearm to leave its case in the middle of the night and blow your windows out, for example. Smart phones are unpredictable in their danger. You would not expect Grindr to sell you out to an oppressive regime, for example. Nor would you expect your private dating profile to get you fired. These are unpredictable outcomes well outside the range of what most users would expect. 0 - Truly accidental discharges where the firearm goes off without a trigger press are rare and make the news. Most negligent discharges are the result of people mishandling the firearm, rather than the firearm doing something unexpected.

phkahler 5y ago
>> Nor would you expect your private dating profile to get you fired. I think the mistake is thinking those profiles are private. How could you ever meet someone without some ability for people to see your profile? I've never tried any dating sites, so may be overlooking something obvious to others.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  There’s an expectation that that information is compartmentalized somehow, a bit like how everyone at a gay bar can see you there but only the people at the gay bar can see you.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Nothing on social media, or really any online service, should ever be considered private. It may claim to be, but ultimately it's not in your control.
    - mPReDiToR 5y ago
      I've been telling my friends/family/anyone who will listen for two decades plus that anything you type into a computer is probably public now, or will be one day. Never type anything you wouldn't want to be taken out of context and read out in court, either a law court, or the court of public opinion.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      That’s factually true, but: 1) That’s not what people expect. 2) There is an argument that it shouldn’t be this way.
dmos62 5y ago
You could say that giving an untrusted app privileges is like giving a gun to someone you don't know.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  I don’t disagree, it just doesn’t seem like that is what most people think.
  - dmos62 5y ago
    I blame UX design, personally. Trying to make everything conceptually trivial made interfaces that glossed over a lot of important details. I'm all for simplicity, but this is shoving complexity under the carpet.
agys 5y ago
Unrelated to main topic, but a case exactly as described by you made the news yesterday in Italy: a man accidentally firing a gun after falling down (accidental trigger press or not is still investigated) [Article in Italian]. https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/07/21/news/voghera_assessore_leghista_spara_e_uccide_un_uomo_dopo_una_lite_in_piazza-311209068 https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/07/21/news/voghera_as...
- dogorman 5y ago
  > (accidental trigger press or not is still investigated) It seems like a moot distinction to me. Take Glock for example; they make a big deal about their guns having "three automatic independently-operating mechanical safeties." But the fact of the matter is a glock has no traditional fire/safe toggle safety. ALL the safety of a glock is based on the premise that the trigger will not be unintentionally pulled when a round is in the chamber. The obvious consequence of this is people getting shot by completely accidental trigger pulls. Whether you drop the gun and it goes off or the trigger snags on your clothing and the gun goes off, a gunshot accident is still a gunshot accident, and both are consequences of the gun's design.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    Glocks are still not unpredictable by my metric. Yes, the margins of safety might be narrower than you’d prefer, but it’s not going to go bang without a trigger press. It’s a very predictable firearm in that way. That being said the first generation was prone to slam fires, where chambering a round sets the firearm off. Now that is an unpredictable tool. Also, historically snagging the trigger on clothing has always been a source of negligent discharges, even before Gaston Glock was around. The allied army in WW2 officially required that most soldiers issued a handgun carry it with an empty chamber due to the prevalence of injuries, and the M1911 has a grip and manual safety.
    - dogorman 5y ago
      I think you've missed my point, > Glocks are still not unpredictable by my metric. [...] it’s not going to go bang without a trigger press. It’s a very predictable firearm in that way. I agree with this completely. Glocks are predictable. Where we part ways is that I don't believe predictability is the metric that should be optimized for. People not getting shot is the important metric; predictability is only important insofar as it relates to that. But as demonstrated by glocks, predictability is not the end-all-be-all when it comes to people not accidentally shooting themselves. As for soldiers in WWII, they also had piss-poor to non-existent trigger discipline. A 1911 is a safer gun than a glock due to the manual safety, but still won't protect you from handling it in unsafe ways. Glocks have that same problem, but worse because they lack manual safeties which function as one last line of defense when you fuck up everything else.

phkahler 5y ago

>> Nor would you expect your private dating profile to get you fired. I think the mistake is thinking those profiles are private. How could you ever meet someone without some ability for people to see your profile? I've never tried any dating sites, so may be overlooking something obvious to others.

ashtonkem 5y ago
There’s an expectation that that information is compartmentalized somehow, a bit like how everyone at a gay bar can see you there but only the people at the gay bar can see you.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Nothing on social media, or really any online service, should ever be considered private. It may claim to be, but ultimately it's not in your control.
  - mPReDiToR 5y ago
    I've been telling my friends/family/anyone who will listen for two decades plus that anything you type into a computer is probably public now, or will be one day. Never type anything you wouldn't want to be taken out of context and read out in court, either a law court, or the court of public opinion.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    That’s factually true, but: 1) That’s not what people expect. 2) There is an argument that it shouldn’t be this way.

dmos62 5y ago

You could say that giving an untrusted app privileges is like giving a gun to someone you don't know.

ashtonkem 5y ago
I don’t disagree, it just doesn’t seem like that is what most people think.
- dmos62 5y ago
  I blame UX design, personally. Trying to make everything conceptually trivial made interfaces that glossed over a lot of important details. I'm all for simplicity, but this is shoving complexity under the carpet.

agys 5y ago

Unrelated to main topic, but a case exactly as described by you made the news yesterday in Italy: a man accidentally firing a gun after falling down (accidental trigger press or not is still investigated) [Article in Italian]. https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/07/21/news/voghera_assessore_leghista_spara_e_uccide_un_uomo_dopo_una_lite_in_piazza-311209068 https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/07/21/news/voghera_as...

dogorman 5y ago
> (accidental trigger press or not is still investigated) It seems like a moot distinction to me. Take Glock for example; they make a big deal about their guns having "three automatic independently-operating mechanical safeties." But the fact of the matter is a glock has no traditional fire/safe toggle safety. ALL the safety of a glock is based on the premise that the trigger will not be unintentionally pulled when a round is in the chamber. The obvious consequence of this is people getting shot by completely accidental trigger pulls. Whether you drop the gun and it goes off or the trigger snags on your clothing and the gun goes off, a gunshot accident is still a gunshot accident, and both are consequences of the gun's design.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Glocks are still not unpredictable by my metric. Yes, the margins of safety might be narrower than you’d prefer, but it’s not going to go bang without a trigger press. It’s a very predictable firearm in that way. That being said the first generation was prone to slam fires, where chambering a round sets the firearm off. Now that is an unpredictable tool. Also, historically snagging the trigger on clothing has always been a source of negligent discharges, even before Gaston Glock was around. The allied army in WW2 officially required that most soldiers issued a handgun carry it with an empty chamber due to the prevalence of injuries, and the M1911 has a grip and manual safety.
  - dogorman 5y ago
    I think you've missed my point, > Glocks are still not unpredictable by my metric. [...] it’s not going to go bang without a trigger press. It’s a very predictable firearm in that way. I agree with this completely. Glocks are predictable. Where we part ways is that I don't believe predictability is the metric that should be optimized for. People not getting shot is the important metric; predictability is only important insofar as it relates to that. But as demonstrated by glocks, predictability is not the end-all-be-all when it comes to people not accidentally shooting themselves. As for soldiers in WWII, they also had piss-poor to non-existent trigger discipline. A 1911 is a safer gun than a glock due to the manual safety, but still won't protect you from handling it in unsafe ways. Glocks have that same problem, but worse because they lack manual safeties which function as one last line of defense when you fuck up everything else.