7 ms·

After 2008 Blizzard produced Hearthstone, Overwatch and Reaper of Souls which consensus 'fixed' Diablo 3 and were all pretty great. So I can't comment about the

After 2008 Blizzard produced Hearthstone, Overwatch and Reaper of Souls which consensus 'fixed' Diablo 3 and were all pretty great. So I can't comment about the culture but I disagree with the general narrative that Blizzard's games have gone off a cliff. That might still be coming, but it hasn't happened quite yet. Edit: snipped the bit about Hero's of the Storm since that was post acquisition

emptysongglass 5y ago
In my opinion the downfall of Blizzard started even earlier in 2004. Ever since World of Warcraft their writing and worldbuilding has stumbled off a cliff. StarCraft's storyline was fantastic and its world spectacularly gritty. The weird whirring mechano-head of the adjutants and bodily entombed dragoons are just some examples of the kooky minds working at the studio at that time. With the cartoonish push that World of Warcraft presaged I saw the wider ambitions to appeal to everyone which washed out the magic for me. Blizzard wasn't alone in this but it broke my heart as a kid who grew up on Sabriel and The Book of the New Sun and Baldur's Gate and EverQuest to watch all those game companies lurch forward to a blank-eyed glossed future.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  > and bodily entombed dragoons Meh. It is an undeniable direct Warhammer 40K plagiarism: before coming up with their own StarCraft universe, Blizzard tried and failed to secure rights for Warhammer 40K setting. So it is easy to see the source of their 'inspiration'. They had many bright moments, but this one is not one they came up with themselves.
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    Like dreadnoughts? I'd argue fantasy and science fiction is all iterating over itself endlessly and there's creative ways of doing it. Plunging dragoons into a liquid bath puts dragoons at something of a cross-section of evangelion and 40k tomb-mech. I could go on. The ghosts exhaling poison vapor with spider eyes or hydralisks vomiting buckets of saliva. Sunken colonies with their long knife-tongues; the Creep. As a whole I think Blizzard really made something special.
  - aeturnum 5y ago
    I think Starcraft and Warcraft before it are both stellar examples of inventive remixing and borrowing from existing worlds. That is very different from plagiarism. Games Workshop does not own the copyright on nearly-dead-warriors-entombed-in-exoskeletons. Nor did they invent the idea of the nearly dead being sustained by cybernetics, or of using robotics to assist those of limited physical ability. We all are inspired by things. It's especially odd to talk about about "Warhammer" or "Starcraft" as if they are managed by a single human, when in fact all of these worlds are written and envisioned by a multi-generational army of creative people who are all drawing on sources to come up with ideas. Are all of the employees of GW who write about dreadnoughts plagiarizing the employee who came up with the idea?
    - Retric 5y ago
      Starcraft copied a lot more than just that from Warhammer. Tyranids giant biological hive mind that rapidly adapts to new environments consuming or infecting existing species to plunder their genetic advantages. Also have plenty of units that looks rather similar to their Zerg equivalents. The basic look of space marines and Starcraft marines are completely different why they toned down the skulls and well that’s about it. That’s fine at least they didn’t copy the ancient psionic technology using Eldar who, wait never mind.
      - aeturnum 5y ago
        So what you're saying is that we shouldn't respect creative works that are too similar to their inspirations and you think a good example of the creative work we should respect is...Warhammer? "It’s all in here, the neolithic bones of our current game system. Borrowing heavily from Tolkein, you get all the standard Fantasy races, standard beasties (heck even the Balrog is in there by name), and so many others...There is no Old World, no Warhammer world, no history, just some little crazed and revolutionary rules for using units of fantasy lead miniatures to fight out epic battles."[1] [1] https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/01/lore-unboxing-warhammer-1st-edition.html https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/01/lore-unboxing-warham...
        5y ago
- learc83 5y ago
  I grew up on Warcraft 2, and to me the cartoonish look of WoW was a direct continuation of the art style from that game. I was in the WoW beta. The first time I played it my initial reaction was that it looked exactly like I had stepped into Warcraft.
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    I see your point with Warcraft 2 though I do think a lot of the art from then leant more to the gritty like this one [1] that shows a troll squaring off with a human. [1] https://i.imgur.com/pJ0entX_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium https://i.imgur.com/pJ0entX_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&...
    - learc83 5y ago
      The game manuals always were pretty gritty compared to the in-game art.
    - tremon 5y ago
      shows a troll squaring off with a human An elf, rather (elven archer).
    - astrange 5y ago
      I remember looking at this in the manual as a kid and thinking the archer was about to have a bad time.
  - pvg 5y ago
    I think initial development/prototyping was done as an offshoot of the WC3 engine so in a sense you were stepping into Warcraft. That's not to take anything away from the great design and art direction consistency between these titles - just that it also had a practical technical component.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  I agree with this. Early Blizzard games had amazing worldbuilding and great single player experiences, with good multiplayer options. After WoW's success they seemed to try to pigeonhole all of their properties in the same direction, SC2 and D3 were quite clearly online/multiplayer first with single player as an afterthought, and the world depth felt lacking. Hearthstone's alright but feels like it has too much focus on PvP games and loot box mechanics.
  - tomc1985 5y ago
    Hearthstone's aesthetic reminds me of the parallel world of stuff that religious groups always make (Christian music, Christian books, etc), and I found it really offputting.
  - rtkwe 5y ago
    StarCraft's big success and fame came from PvP instead of CPU matches though so it's not super surprising.
- baud147258 5y ago
  > cartoonish push that World of Warcraft wasn't the cartoonish style already present in Warcraft 3?
  - spcebar 5y ago
    There's nothing cartoonist about flying sheep and giant drunken pandas.
- oblio 5y ago
  > With the cartoonish push that World of Warcraft presaged I saw the wider ambitions to appeal to everyone which washed out the magic for me. You're looking at it through rose tinted glasses. Blizzard has always been about a cartoonish look. That's why I like their games. Realism always falls into the "uncanny valley" territory for me.
adamkittelson 5y ago
The fact that Diablo 3 needed to be "fixed" supports the narrative. Also the fact that executives didn't realize it had been fixed and cancelled the 2nd Diablo 3 expansion. The Warcraft III remaster was a disaster. Three out of the last four World of Warcraft expansions have been poorly received. There does seem to be a pattern of decline.
- brailsafe 5y ago
  Which 3 of the last 4? Legion, BfA, and now SL have all been received quite well I think.
  - blacktriangle 5y ago
    of the last 4, (ie WoD, Legion, BfA, and SL), Legion was the only one that you could call well received. WoD, BfA, and SL are all utter shit. WoD deserves a special place in game design hell for choosing to implement garrisons over another tier of raid content.
    - brailsafe 5y ago
      This is a common sentiment I hear from people who bailed during WoD and have just been looking at public commentary about the rest. Everyone I spoke to in-game were at least meh about BfA, loved Legion, and were still stoked on SL until the new patch just took a bit too long. There are legit criticisms of all of them, but to say they're shit is just silly. Those same people also tended to love MoP fwiw. My only real criticism is related to the majority of all game content being kind of irrelevant, because there isn't a long road to max level and no scarcity of exp. However, I did level through BfA content, and it was really well done.
      - Accacin 5y ago
        I'm odd in that I actually loved WoD, aside from Garrisons. Legion had it's moment of greatness, around the fourth patch it was great. BfA and Shadowlands are incredibly bad, for casual players there's really nothing interesting to do, and raiders and stuck behind meaningless time gates. It's quite sad to see my friends list now, no one is playing - and a new patch has just been released. I'm a huge fan, but I've also stopped playing. Blizzard feel like they've been ahead for so long they forget what made their games great. Saying that though, it only takes on incredible expansion for everyone to jump back.
ggregoire 5y ago
> I disagree with the general narrative that Blizzard's games have gone off a cliff. That might still be coming, but it hasn't happened quite yet. Have you played the last 2 World of Warcraft extensions? Or Warcraft 3: Reforged, the only "new game" they released since 2016, which is also commonly known as Warcraft 3: Refunded? [1][2] [1] https://www.warcraft3refunded.com https://www.warcraft3refunded.com [2] https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/blizzard-botched-warcraft-iii-remake-after-internal-fights-pressure-over-costs-1.1631788 https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/blizzard-botched-warcraft-iii-re... (published 7 hours ago)

emptysongglass 5y ago

In my opinion the downfall of Blizzard started even earlier in 2004. Ever since World of Warcraft their writing and worldbuilding has stumbled off a cliff. StarCraft's storyline was fantastic and its world spectacularly gritty. The weird whirring mechano-head of the adjutants and bodily entombed dragoons are just some examples of the kooky minds working at the studio at that time. With the cartoonish push that World of Warcraft presaged I saw the wider ambitions to appeal to everyone which washed out the magic for me. Blizzard wasn't alone in this but it broke my heart as a kid who grew up on Sabriel and The Book of the New Sun and Baldur's Gate and EverQuest to watch all those game companies lurch forward to a blank-eyed glossed future.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
> and bodily entombed dragoons Meh. It is an undeniable direct Warhammer 40K plagiarism: before coming up with their own StarCraft universe, Blizzard tried and failed to secure rights for Warhammer 40K setting. So it is easy to see the source of their 'inspiration'. They had many bright moments, but this one is not one they came up with themselves.
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  Like dreadnoughts? I'd argue fantasy and science fiction is all iterating over itself endlessly and there's creative ways of doing it. Plunging dragoons into a liquid bath puts dragoons at something of a cross-section of evangelion and 40k tomb-mech. I could go on. The ghosts exhaling poison vapor with spider eyes or hydralisks vomiting buckets of saliva. Sunken colonies with their long knife-tongues; the Creep. As a whole I think Blizzard really made something special.
- aeturnum 5y ago
  I think Starcraft and Warcraft before it are both stellar examples of inventive remixing and borrowing from existing worlds. That is very different from plagiarism. Games Workshop does not own the copyright on nearly-dead-warriors-entombed-in-exoskeletons. Nor did they invent the idea of the nearly dead being sustained by cybernetics, or of using robotics to assist those of limited physical ability. We all are inspired by things. It's especially odd to talk about about "Warhammer" or "Starcraft" as if they are managed by a single human, when in fact all of these worlds are written and envisioned by a multi-generational army of creative people who are all drawing on sources to come up with ideas. Are all of the employees of GW who write about dreadnoughts plagiarizing the employee who came up with the idea?
  - Retric 5y ago
    Starcraft copied a lot more than just that from Warhammer. Tyranids giant biological hive mind that rapidly adapts to new environments consuming or infecting existing species to plunder their genetic advantages. Also have plenty of units that looks rather similar to their Zerg equivalents. The basic look of space marines and Starcraft marines are completely different why they toned down the skulls and well that’s about it. That’s fine at least they didn’t copy the ancient psionic technology using Eldar who, wait never mind.
    - aeturnum 5y ago
      So what you're saying is that we shouldn't respect creative works that are too similar to their inspirations and you think a good example of the creative work we should respect is...Warhammer? "It’s all in here, the neolithic bones of our current game system. Borrowing heavily from Tolkein, you get all the standard Fantasy races, standard beasties (heck even the Balrog is in there by name), and so many others...There is no Old World, no Warhammer world, no history, just some little crazed and revolutionary rules for using units of fantasy lead miniatures to fight out epic battles."[1] [1] https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/01/lore-unboxing-warhammer-1st-edition.html https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/01/lore-unboxing-warham...
      - 5y ago
learc83 5y ago
I grew up on Warcraft 2, and to me the cartoonish look of WoW was a direct continuation of the art style from that game. I was in the WoW beta. The first time I played it my initial reaction was that it looked exactly like I had stepped into Warcraft.
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  I see your point with Warcraft 2 though I do think a lot of the art from then leant more to the gritty like this one [1] that shows a troll squaring off with a human. [1] https://i.imgur.com/pJ0entX_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium https://i.imgur.com/pJ0entX_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&...
  - learc83 5y ago
    The game manuals always were pretty gritty compared to the in-game art.
  - tremon 5y ago
    shows a troll squaring off with a human An elf, rather (elven archer).
  - astrange 5y ago
    I remember looking at this in the manual as a kid and thinking the archer was about to have a bad time.
- pvg 5y ago
  I think initial development/prototyping was done as an offshoot of the WC3 engine so in a sense you were stepping into Warcraft. That's not to take anything away from the great design and art direction consistency between these titles - just that it also had a practical technical component.
cwkoss 5y ago
I agree with this. Early Blizzard games had amazing worldbuilding and great single player experiences, with good multiplayer options. After WoW's success they seemed to try to pigeonhole all of their properties in the same direction, SC2 and D3 were quite clearly online/multiplayer first with single player as an afterthought, and the world depth felt lacking. Hearthstone's alright but feels like it has too much focus on PvP games and loot box mechanics.
- tomc1985 5y ago
  Hearthstone's aesthetic reminds me of the parallel world of stuff that religious groups always make (Christian music, Christian books, etc), and I found it really offputting.
- rtkwe 5y ago
  StarCraft's big success and fame came from PvP instead of CPU matches though so it's not super surprising.
baud147258 5y ago
> cartoonish push that World of Warcraft wasn't the cartoonish style already present in Warcraft 3?
- spcebar 5y ago
  There's nothing cartoonist about flying sheep and giant drunken pandas.
oblio 5y ago
> With the cartoonish push that World of Warcraft presaged I saw the wider ambitions to appeal to everyone which washed out the magic for me. You're looking at it through rose tinted glasses. Blizzard has always been about a cartoonish look. That's why I like their games. Realism always falls into the "uncanny valley" territory for me.

adamkittelson 5y ago

The fact that Diablo 3 needed to be "fixed" supports the narrative. Also the fact that executives didn't realize it had been fixed and cancelled the 2nd Diablo 3 expansion. The Warcraft III remaster was a disaster. Three out of the last four World of Warcraft expansions have been poorly received. There does seem to be a pattern of decline.

brailsafe 5y ago
Which 3 of the last 4? Legion, BfA, and now SL have all been received quite well I think.
- blacktriangle 5y ago
  of the last 4, (ie WoD, Legion, BfA, and SL), Legion was the only one that you could call well received. WoD, BfA, and SL are all utter shit. WoD deserves a special place in game design hell for choosing to implement garrisons over another tier of raid content.
  - brailsafe 5y ago
    This is a common sentiment I hear from people who bailed during WoD and have just been looking at public commentary about the rest. Everyone I spoke to in-game were at least meh about BfA, loved Legion, and were still stoked on SL until the new patch just took a bit too long. There are legit criticisms of all of them, but to say they're shit is just silly. Those same people also tended to love MoP fwiw. My only real criticism is related to the majority of all game content being kind of irrelevant, because there isn't a long road to max level and no scarcity of exp. However, I did level through BfA content, and it was really well done.
    - Accacin 5y ago
      I'm odd in that I actually loved WoD, aside from Garrisons. Legion had it's moment of greatness, around the fourth patch it was great. BfA and Shadowlands are incredibly bad, for casual players there's really nothing interesting to do, and raiders and stuck behind meaningless time gates. It's quite sad to see my friends list now, no one is playing - and a new patch has just been released. I'm a huge fan, but I've also stopped playing. Blizzard feel like they've been ahead for so long they forget what made their games great. Saying that though, it only takes on incredible expansion for everyone to jump back.

ggregoire 5y ago

> I disagree with the general narrative that Blizzard's games have gone off a cliff. That might still be coming, but it hasn't happened quite yet. Have you played the last 2 World of Warcraft extensions? Or Warcraft 3: Reforged, the only "new game" they released since 2016, which is also commonly known as Warcraft 3: Refunded? [1][2] [1] https://www.warcraft3refunded.com https://www.warcraft3refunded.com [2] https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/blizzard-botched-warcraft-iii-remake-after-internal-fights-pressure-over-costs-1.1631788 https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/blizzard-botched-warcraft-iii-re... (published 7 hours ago)