7 ms·

IDK in your country, in mine the downside was that we all knew such pay gap is mostly non-existant, so they mandated a pay gap law but data is locked under trad

IDK in your country, in mine the downside was that we all knew such pay gap is mostly non-existant, so they mandated a pay gap law but data is locked under trade unions gatekeeping.

neither_color 5y ago
Of course it doesn't exist, because if it did any CEO could say "let's hire women instead of men and save 25%"
- spaniard89277 5y ago
  In my country most salaries are mandated with trade-union agreements, even variable compensations. Only very specific and niche cases behave outside that framework. If any trade union or person believed that there was a real pay gap in any company, they could sue and win if true. Even way before current law. With the new law, it's even easier, as they get access to all the microdata basically. But nothing lands on courts yet.
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  By this logic, racial and gender pay gaps should never have existed. Why didn't any visionary CEO in America hire blacks instead of whites in 1950 and save 50% on labor?
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Because they were also kept out of the schools that would give them the qualifications to work those jobs. No cost savings if your engineer or accountant was never trained. So companies hired them for the menial jobs which paid less universally.
    - cool_dude85 5y ago
      No black engineers or accountants in 1950? Whats the pay gap between you and a knowledgeable employee?
      - giantg2 5y ago
        Not that there were zero, just that they were rare due to entry barriers. If you have evidence to the contrary I would love to see it rather than listen to your pathetic attempt at a clever put down.
        cool_dude85 5y ago
        You're the one who said there were none. Now you admit there were, my original question remains. Why didn't any CEO hire them at a white firm at half pay and make a bundle?
        giantg2 5y ago
        Maybe you can learn reading comprehension. In the context of a company hiring only minorities in professional roles there were effectively none. Again, how about some evidence to the contrary?
        chalst 5y ago
        I don't know, but I don't find it hard to furnish ideas. Colleges used to try to ensure they didn't produce more professionally qualified graduates than there were entry-level positions for. Perhaps colleges only graduated fewer black students than there were openings in black-owned enterprises?
- throwaway2048 5y ago
  If people were rational, bigotry wouldn't exist in the first place.
lifthrasiir 5y ago
I presume you are from Spain, which indeed is one of the top countries in the Global Gender Gap Index [1] but its unadjusted gender pay gap still sits at 11.9% (2019 provisional) [2]. Yes it's called "unadjusted" for a reason (gender pay gap is a broad phenomenon and can't be described with a single statistics and that's why we have the Index) but it is far from "non-existant". [1] http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GGGR_2021.pdf http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GGGR_2021.pdf (14th place in 2021) [2] https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=sdg_05_20&lang=en https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=sdg...
- spaniard89277 5y ago
  Trade Unions have access to companies microdata now. If there such pay gap, there's no excuse now. I don't really want to get into a large discussion, but I know the data sources of these studies as I used them pretty often, and you'll have to be pretty creative, either with data or with definitions. This issue for me is very linked with my distrust of academia, is not just this issue. I went to uni (sociology) in my mid 20s and I wasn't impressed with the ethical standards of the field, let's say that.
  - lifthrasiir 5y ago
    Gender pay gap is not just about the wage equality in the same companies (AFAIK this is what the 2021 law concerns). It can for example also arise from the selective employment, which effectively segregates the labor force by gender. If my reading of the Global Gender Gap Index is correct, the disparity of estimated earned income in Spain is 34.9% (score 0.651), which suggests this scenario. > I went to uni (sociology) in my mid 20s and I wasn't impressed with the ethical standards of the field, let's say that. This honestly sounds like conspiracy believers. If you feel a particular statistics is flawed (perfectly possible by the way) you ought to give a counter evidence, not your anecdote.
    - spaniard89277 5y ago
      > selective employment That's mostly an effect of what women study, and motherhood. There's a discussion about nature/nurture, the gender paradox and all that behind those figures. > This honestly sounds like conspiracy believers. If you feel a particular statistics is flawed (perfectly possible by the way) you ought to give a counter evidence, not your anecdote. I don't really want to vent out publicly here, I already did too much, but someone influential in this field was my professor. This professor admitted, maybe without being aware of so, that the results of the research being conducted in that moment were being massaged to fit the hypothesis. Look, IDK, my nick can already be linked to my real persona, so understand I don't want to get into details here. In fact I'm not sure if I should be posting this, as it could affect future job prospects.

IDK in your country, in mine the downside was that we all knew such pay gap is mostly non-existant, so they mandated a pay gap law but data is locked under trade unions gatekeeping.

neither_color 5y ago

Of course it doesn't exist, because if it did any CEO could say "let's hire women instead of men and save 25%"

spaniard89277 5y ago
In my country most salaries are mandated with trade-union agreements, even variable compensations. Only very specific and niche cases behave outside that framework. If any trade union or person believed that there was a real pay gap in any company, they could sue and win if true. Even way before current law. With the new law, it's even easier, as they get access to all the microdata basically. But nothing lands on courts yet.
cool_dude85 5y ago
By this logic, racial and gender pay gaps should never have existed. Why didn't any visionary CEO in America hire blacks instead of whites in 1950 and save 50% on labor?
- giantg2 5y ago
  Because they were also kept out of the schools that would give them the qualifications to work those jobs. No cost savings if your engineer or accountant was never trained. So companies hired them for the menial jobs which paid less universally.
  - cool_dude85 5y ago
    No black engineers or accountants in 1950? Whats the pay gap between you and a knowledgeable employee?
    - giantg2 5y ago
      Not that there were zero, just that they were rare due to entry barriers. If you have evidence to the contrary I would love to see it rather than listen to your pathetic attempt at a clever put down.
      - cool_dude85 5y ago
        You're the one who said there were none. Now you admit there were, my original question remains. Why didn't any CEO hire them at a white firm at half pay and make a bundle?
        giantg2 5y ago
        Maybe you can learn reading comprehension. In the context of a company hiring only minorities in professional roles there were effectively none. Again, how about some evidence to the contrary?
        chalst 5y ago
        I don't know, but I don't find it hard to furnish ideas. Colleges used to try to ensure they didn't produce more professionally qualified graduates than there were entry-level positions for. Perhaps colleges only graduated fewer black students than there were openings in black-owned enterprises?
throwaway2048 5y ago
If people were rational, bigotry wouldn't exist in the first place.

lifthrasiir 5y ago

I presume you are from Spain, which indeed is one of the top countries in the Global Gender Gap Index [1] but its unadjusted gender pay gap still sits at 11.9% (2019 provisional) [2]. Yes it's called "unadjusted" for a reason (gender pay gap is a broad phenomenon and can't be described with a single statistics and that's why we have the Index) but it is far from "non-existant". [1] http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GGGR_2021.pdf http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GGGR_2021.pdf (14th place in 2021) [2] https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=sdg_05_20&lang=en https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=sdg...

spaniard89277 5y ago
Trade Unions have access to companies microdata now. If there such pay gap, there's no excuse now. I don't really want to get into a large discussion, but I know the data sources of these studies as I used them pretty often, and you'll have to be pretty creative, either with data or with definitions. This issue for me is very linked with my distrust of academia, is not just this issue. I went to uni (sociology) in my mid 20s and I wasn't impressed with the ethical standards of the field, let's say that.
- lifthrasiir 5y ago
  Gender pay gap is not just about the wage equality in the same companies (AFAIK this is what the 2021 law concerns). It can for example also arise from the selective employment, which effectively segregates the labor force by gender. If my reading of the Global Gender Gap Index is correct, the disparity of estimated earned income in Spain is 34.9% (score 0.651), which suggests this scenario. > I went to uni (sociology) in my mid 20s and I wasn't impressed with the ethical standards of the field, let's say that. This honestly sounds like conspiracy believers. If you feel a particular statistics is flawed (perfectly possible by the way) you ought to give a counter evidence, not your anecdote.
  - spaniard89277 5y ago
    > selective employment That's mostly an effect of what women study, and motherhood. There's a discussion about nature/nurture, the gender paradox and all that behind those figures. > This honestly sounds like conspiracy believers. If you feel a particular statistics is flawed (perfectly possible by the way) you ought to give a counter evidence, not your anecdote. I don't really want to vent out publicly here, I already did too much, but someone influential in this field was my professor. This professor admitted, maybe without being aware of so, that the results of the research being conducted in that moment were being massaged to fit the hypothesis. Look, IDK, my nick can already be linked to my real persona, so understand I don't want to get into details here. In fact I'm not sure if I should be posting this, as it could affect future job prospects.