7 ms·

Anecdote: My half-sister is a diagnosed schizophrenic and life-long weed smoker. It seems to me (and her doctors agree) that the two are absolutely related. Sh

by mthoms 5y ago

Anecdote: My half-sister is a diagnosed schizophrenic and life-long weed smoker. It seems to me (and her doctors agree) that the two are absolutely related. She was likely predisposed to schizophrenia (because of her father - which we don't share) but I often wonder if it would have progressed the way it did absent the heavy smoking. I say this also as a pot smoker myself (but only lightly in the past decade or so). I have nothing against it, and used to scoff at those who were against it. Now... I'm absolutely convinced that marijuana use can have absolutely catastrophic mental health implications for some people. I'm also convinced it can help people with certain conditions. At any rate, it's much less benign than I long thought.

Loic 5y ago
I am sorry to say that you are most likely right. My father is[0] a psychiatrist in big psychiatric hospital in France (1500 beds, only psychiatry, nothing else) and he told me again and again that he was against the legalisation of marijuana because of this. The problem is that once you trigger schizophrenia you need to live with it, all your life... Note that he told me so, even if his work during the last 15 years was mainly with the very poor people or refugees without health insurance, the ones suffering a lot from the drug dealers and all the associated black market, prostitution and abuse against minorities, women and kids. We had lively discussion because I consider that legalizing drugs would reduce violence, gangs, etc. but it is hard to argue against somebody having clear first hand experience with both sides of the problem. [0]: was in fact, he retired 2 weeks ago.
- dmos62 5y ago
  Same experience with a (art) therapist in a mental hospital (less than 1500 beds). Very persistent in asserting that weed causes some people to end up there. I don't think it's a good argument against legalization. We don't ban alcohol, because there are alcoholics. I think it would be smarter to regulate the recreational drug industry and use its taxes to fund relevant education, research and mental health programmes.
  - Weebs 5y ago
    It's unfortunate research was barred for so long (at least in the US), because we could have had a good idea by now what risk factors there are and their warning signs at onset
  - Loic 5y ago
    You can drink a bit too much with 18 during a year and nicely recover. With marijuana, you smoke a bit too much during a year and you are good for life. This is why I totally understand the point of view of the therapists having to deal with the long term effects on these unlucky people. Both sides have good arguments, one cannot ignore them, only trade-offs to accept one way or another.
    - NeutronStar 5y ago
      Still better than death due to alcohol.
    - croes 5y ago
      Nice try. A little bit too much? It's about heavy use. Heavy use of marijuana can lead to shizophrenia, heavy use of alcohol can kill you or at least severely damage your brain or liver. Not to mention the number of secondary victims of alcohol through drunk driving or violence. Compare that to marijuana and alcohol is the bigger problem.
      - dmos62 5y ago
        I'll add that alcoholism's social and psychological effects can be extreme. Some cultures have experienced it more than others. A close relative had that since ~30 years of age until death at ~80 years of age. During his twenties he abstained. Then it was social drinking, then it became more frequent, then he started becoming dysfunctional, not being able to perform in his professional life, all the while his mental state degraded, around 50 years of age you could still argue with him, around 60-70 there wasn't anyone to argue with anymore, there was only a craving left. I don't think it's just the alcohol. I presume that it concealed a psychological problem. But, I can't help thinking that if it were some other drug the person in question would have had a higher life quality. Alcohol is very punishing in all ways.
- alisonatwork 5y ago
  I am pro legalization because I think people should get to make their own decisions about what they put in their own bodies, but I definitely agree that this aspect of marijuana use is somewhat downplayed by many of its advocates. Anecdotally, I have seen several marijuana-using friends go down the tubes. One became extremely paranoid to the point he was unable to maintain relationships with the people around him (because he was worried everyone might be a spy), and several others became extremely unpleasant and irritable when they weren't high on the drug. This is perhaps the minority case and most people can partake relatively safely, but I definitely don't see it as a completely harmless substance.
  - chris37879 5y ago
    Yup, I still smoke regularly, but I have noticed that if I smoke a lot (and I do mean a lot), I start having paranoia when I'm not high, which is odd cause I don't have it while high. Once that happened to me and I realized the connection, I've scaled my smoking back a lot and it doesn't happen. My brother, on the other hand, smokes way too much, even when I was living in a legal state smoking a lot, he smokes more than I did, and you're spot on, when he doesn't have any weed, he is a hateful, mean, angry person, I've begged him to stop smoking so much, but of course he won't listen to me.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "One became extremely paranoid to the point he was unable to maintain relationships with the people around him" I would bet you anything that this person was using a high-potency grade of cannabis and/or smoking a lot of it. If they just used a little bit of a low-potency strain it's unlikely they would have suffered from paranoia. "several others became extremely unpleasant and irritable when they weren't high on the drug" So, wait, these people became nicer to be around while they were smoking and this is supposed to be a bad thing?
    - alisonatwork 5y ago
      Well, they used to be nicer before they started smoking a lot. Then they developed a newer, more irritable personality, which only lifted when they were high. In my experience the same sort of thing can happen with alcoholics.
- dantheman 5y ago
  So your father is for imprisoning people, gang violence, and the overall cartel drug system, because a few people will develop schizophrenia -- The question isn't marijuana or no marijuana, it's marijuana vs all the problems with prohibition. Also, there's a fundamental right to self medicate.
dmos62 5y ago
When you think about it, it's bizzarre to expect weed to be benign in the long-term, when it's not benign in the short-term (as in, perceptibly alters many biological and psychological processes).
Shindi 5y ago
> Now... I'm absolutely convinced that marijuana use can have absolutely catastrophic mental health implications for some people. I'm also convinced it can help people with certain conditions. Absolutely. I am cutting down on weed after seeing it wreck a friend. They were really bright and down to Earth, but they use weed to deal with anxiety and now need to smoke before hanging out with friends. Now they are fully dependent on weed. It has turned them into an unbearable person with no motivation. My friend is now totally unaware of how much of an asshole they are and no one wants to deal with them. Weed can be an awesome relatively safe drug but please look for the warning signs of dependence and know that r/leaves exists.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  Is weed legal and culturally accepted where you live?
  - Shindi 5y ago
    Yes it is
lojack 5y ago
correlation != causation OP was commenting on why there may not necessarily be a causation, and you commented on how the doctors tend to think there's a correlation. It just as well could be that schizophrenia tends to lead to increased marijuana consumption as people are self medicating. I'm no expert, so I don't have any strong beliefs around causation, but I do think both lines of thought (marijuana causing schizophrenia, or vice versa) seem pretty logical to me. It's pretty widely believed that there is a correlation between the two, but the reason behind the link is where there's a lot of debate.
engineeringwoke 5y ago
Similar story. I was a heavy smoker for ~10 years and was all for it, but I've since quit and realized how destructive it can be at high doses for long periods of time. The discourse around how destructive it is encourages this thinking, similarly to how Americans struggle with alcoholism while Italians do not, despite the latter's culture of continuous exposure at young ages.
heavyset_go 5y ago
People with schizophrenia-related disorders are likely to use substances to deal with the negative symptoms[1] of the disorders. For example, there is a high correlation between having schizophrenia and consuming nicotine[2]: > A strong association between schizophrenia and tobacco smoking has been shown in worldwide studies. Smoking is especially high in those diagnosed with schizophrenia, with estimates ranging from 80 to 90% being regular smokers, as compared to 20% of the general population. Those who smoke tend to smoke heavily, and additionally smoke cigarettes with high nicotine content. I'd argue that nicotine use isn't a cause of schizophrenia, but an effect, as nicotine is reported to alleviate some people's schizophrenia symptoms. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Negative_symptoms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Negative_symptom... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Prognosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Prognosis
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  This is meaningless, since it conflates tobacco smoking with pure nicotine. In reality, tobacco smoke contains dozens if not hundreds of different psychoactive chemicals, and certain ones acting as monoamine oxidase inhibitors contribute heavily to tobacco dependence.
  - thatcat 5y ago
    Maoi in tobacco smoke is the suspected active ingredient
- cloverich 5y ago
  Nicotine also alleviates the (substantial) side effects from commonly used medications from what I remember. I think your point is generally true, but in the case of Marijuana I do remember as it being specifically a precipitant of an episode. Schizophrenics aren't awlays in a psychotic state in the same way manic depressives aren't always in a manic / depressive state. I believe the general perception is that pot would cause a person to become psychotic more often / earlier but not be outright causitive if that makes sense.
secondcoming 5y ago
Same. I've smoked more than fair share of weed over the years and while I turned out ok (I think), two of my friends from back then have had their lives ruined due to mental health issues. There's no doubt that them smoking cannabis didn't help.

by mthoms 5y ago

Loic 5y ago

I am sorry to say that you are most likely right. My father is[0] a psychiatrist in big psychiatric hospital in France (1500 beds, only psychiatry, nothing else) and he told me again and again that he was against the legalisation of marijuana because of this. The problem is that once you trigger schizophrenia you need to live with it, all your life... Note that he told me so, even if his work during the last 15 years was mainly with the very poor people or refugees without health insurance, the ones suffering a lot from the drug dealers and all the associated black market, prostitution and abuse against minorities, women and kids. We had lively discussion because I consider that legalizing drugs would reduce violence, gangs, etc. but it is hard to argue against somebody having clear first hand experience with both sides of the problem. [0]: was in fact, he retired 2 weeks ago.

dmos62 5y ago
Same experience with a (art) therapist in a mental hospital (less than 1500 beds). Very persistent in asserting that weed causes some people to end up there. I don't think it's a good argument against legalization. We don't ban alcohol, because there are alcoholics. I think it would be smarter to regulate the recreational drug industry and use its taxes to fund relevant education, research and mental health programmes.
- Weebs 5y ago
  It's unfortunate research was barred for so long (at least in the US), because we could have had a good idea by now what risk factors there are and their warning signs at onset
- Loic 5y ago
  You can drink a bit too much with 18 during a year and nicely recover. With marijuana, you smoke a bit too much during a year and you are good for life. This is why I totally understand the point of view of the therapists having to deal with the long term effects on these unlucky people. Both sides have good arguments, one cannot ignore them, only trade-offs to accept one way or another.
  - NeutronStar 5y ago
    Still better than death due to alcohol.
  - croes 5y ago
    Nice try. A little bit too much? It's about heavy use. Heavy use of marijuana can lead to shizophrenia, heavy use of alcohol can kill you or at least severely damage your brain or liver. Not to mention the number of secondary victims of alcohol through drunk driving or violence. Compare that to marijuana and alcohol is the bigger problem.
    - dmos62 5y ago
      I'll add that alcoholism's social and psychological effects can be extreme. Some cultures have experienced it more than others. A close relative had that since ~30 years of age until death at ~80 years of age. During his twenties he abstained. Then it was social drinking, then it became more frequent, then he started becoming dysfunctional, not being able to perform in his professional life, all the while his mental state degraded, around 50 years of age you could still argue with him, around 60-70 there wasn't anyone to argue with anymore, there was only a craving left. I don't think it's just the alcohol. I presume that it concealed a psychological problem. But, I can't help thinking that if it were some other drug the person in question would have had a higher life quality. Alcohol is very punishing in all ways.
alisonatwork 5y ago
I am pro legalization because I think people should get to make their own decisions about what they put in their own bodies, but I definitely agree that this aspect of marijuana use is somewhat downplayed by many of its advocates. Anecdotally, I have seen several marijuana-using friends go down the tubes. One became extremely paranoid to the point he was unable to maintain relationships with the people around him (because he was worried everyone might be a spy), and several others became extremely unpleasant and irritable when they weren't high on the drug. This is perhaps the minority case and most people can partake relatively safely, but I definitely don't see it as a completely harmless substance.
- chris37879 5y ago
  Yup, I still smoke regularly, but I have noticed that if I smoke a lot (and I do mean a lot), I start having paranoia when I'm not high, which is odd cause I don't have it while high. Once that happened to me and I realized the connection, I've scaled my smoking back a lot and it doesn't happen. My brother, on the other hand, smokes way too much, even when I was living in a legal state smoking a lot, he smokes more than I did, and you're spot on, when he doesn't have any weed, he is a hateful, mean, angry person, I've begged him to stop smoking so much, but of course he won't listen to me.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "One became extremely paranoid to the point he was unable to maintain relationships with the people around him" I would bet you anything that this person was using a high-potency grade of cannabis and/or smoking a lot of it. If they just used a little bit of a low-potency strain it's unlikely they would have suffered from paranoia. "several others became extremely unpleasant and irritable when they weren't high on the drug" So, wait, these people became nicer to be around while they were smoking and this is supposed to be a bad thing?
  - alisonatwork 5y ago
    Well, they used to be nicer before they started smoking a lot. Then they developed a newer, more irritable personality, which only lifted when they were high. In my experience the same sort of thing can happen with alcoholics.
dantheman 5y ago
So your father is for imprisoning people, gang violence, and the overall cartel drug system, because a few people will develop schizophrenia -- The question isn't marijuana or no marijuana, it's marijuana vs all the problems with prohibition. Also, there's a fundamental right to self medicate.

dmos62 5y ago

When you think about it, it's bizzarre to expect weed to be benign in the long-term, when it's not benign in the short-term (as in, perceptibly alters many biological and psychological processes).

Shindi 5y ago

> Now... I'm absolutely convinced that marijuana use can have absolutely catastrophic mental health implications for some people. I'm also convinced it can help people with certain conditions. Absolutely. I am cutting down on weed after seeing it wreck a friend. They were really bright and down to Earth, but they use weed to deal with anxiety and now need to smoke before hanging out with friends. Now they are fully dependent on weed. It has turned them into an unbearable person with no motivation. My friend is now totally unaware of how much of an asshole they are and no one wants to deal with them. Weed can be an awesome relatively safe drug but please look for the warning signs of dependence and know that r/leaves exists.

eurasiantiger 5y ago
Is weed legal and culturally accepted where you live?
- Shindi 5y ago
  Yes it is

lojack 5y ago

correlation != causation OP was commenting on why there may not necessarily be a causation, and you commented on how the doctors tend to think there's a correlation. It just as well could be that schizophrenia tends to lead to increased marijuana consumption as people are self medicating. I'm no expert, so I don't have any strong beliefs around causation, but I do think both lines of thought (marijuana causing schizophrenia, or vice versa) seem pretty logical to me. It's pretty widely believed that there is a correlation between the two, but the reason behind the link is where there's a lot of debate.

engineeringwoke 5y ago

Similar story. I was a heavy smoker for ~10 years and was all for it, but I've since quit and realized how destructive it can be at high doses for long periods of time. The discourse around how destructive it is encourages this thinking, similarly to how Americans struggle with alcoholism while Italians do not, despite the latter's culture of continuous exposure at young ages.

heavyset_go 5y ago

People with schizophrenia-related disorders are likely to use substances to deal with the negative symptoms[1] of the disorders. For example, there is a high correlation between having schizophrenia and consuming nicotine[2]: > A strong association between schizophrenia and tobacco smoking has been shown in worldwide studies. Smoking is especially high in those diagnosed with schizophrenia, with estimates ranging from 80 to 90% being regular smokers, as compared to 20% of the general population. Those who smoke tend to smoke heavily, and additionally smoke cigarettes with high nicotine content. I'd argue that nicotine use isn't a cause of schizophrenia, but an effect, as nicotine is reported to alleviate some people's schizophrenia symptoms. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Negative_symptoms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Negative_symptom... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Prognosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Prognosis

eurasiantiger 5y ago
This is meaningless, since it conflates tobacco smoking with pure nicotine. In reality, tobacco smoke contains dozens if not hundreds of different psychoactive chemicals, and certain ones acting as monoamine oxidase inhibitors contribute heavily to tobacco dependence.
- thatcat 5y ago
  Maoi in tobacco smoke is the suspected active ingredient
cloverich 5y ago
Nicotine also alleviates the (substantial) side effects from commonly used medications from what I remember. I think your point is generally true, but in the case of Marijuana I do remember as it being specifically a precipitant of an episode. Schizophrenics aren't awlays in a psychotic state in the same way manic depressives aren't always in a manic / depressive state. I believe the general perception is that pot would cause a person to become psychotic more often / earlier but not be outright causitive if that makes sense.

secondcoming 5y ago

Same. I've smoked more than fair share of weed over the years and while I turned out ok (I think), two of my friends from back then have had their lives ruined due to mental health issues. There's no doubt that them smoking cannabis didn't help.