6 ms·

So my question is, what if TurnItIn quoted a student's paper instead of the teacher quoting an email? I ask because these university's are effectively giving t

by sgk284 15y ago

So my question is, what if TurnItIn quoted a student's paper instead of the teacher quoting an email? I ask because these university's are effectively giving these student's papers to TurnItIn to use and make a profit on however they please. The students have no say in the matter, and that doesn't seem to be very protective of their privacy.

JoachimSchipper 15y ago
Universities typically have all rights to their students' papers. I'm not sure that I'd expect privacy for college essays either, although it's a bit odd that you are technically not usually allowed to, say, post them to your blog.
- wisesage5001 15y ago
  Do you have any sources for the claim that universities typically have all rights to a student's papers? I can say for certain that I never signed any intellectual property agreement with the university I attended and would expect to retain all rights to any work I completed there as a student. The work I created did have an implied license allowing for grading the papers and such, but any use beyond that would upset me unless I the university had obtained my permission.
  - oniTony 15y ago
    Not sure on what's typical, but my University uses a "you get to keep your IP" as a selling point; so presumably there must be enough of other institutions where this is not the case. UMissouri's attempt to claim royalties for student's in-class developed iPhone app (although later backing down and changing policies) is an interesting example of the other extreme.
  - JoachimSchipper 15y ago
    From some random Googling: Duke University does not claim any rights, unless more-than-normal assistance was given (http://www.du.edu/intellectualproperty/iprop.html http://www.du.edu/intellectualproperty/iprop.html); Coventry does claim all rights (http://wwwm.coventry.ac.uk/ipr/students/Pages/FAQstudents.aspx http://wwwm.coventry.ac.uk/ipr/students/Pages/FAQstudents.as...); Waterloo does not (http://secretariat.uwaterloo.ca/Policies/policy73.htm http://secretariat.uwaterloo.ca/Policies/policy73.htm); Leeds does (http://www.leeds.ac.uk/research/hbook/ipr3.htm http://www.leeds.ac.uk/research/hbook/ipr3.htm); Glasgow does not (http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/datamanagement/creatingyourdata/intellectualpropertyrights/ http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/datamanagement/creatingyourdat...). Etc. My old university (Utrecht) did claim all rights. (Note that, where appropriate, I have considered undergraduates; PhD students are typically staff, with the attendant work-for-hire provisions.) Still, it seems that I should amend my statement to "Universities often have..." (Note that this is based on a very quick skimming, and IANAL.)
bobbles 15y ago
There was a bit of backlash when the Australian university I attended started using TurnItIn for this very reason. There was also a dubious clause in the T&C that stated something along the lines of "Copyright protection for Australian documents does not apply as TurnItIn stores all of the documents on servers in the U.S"
jbermudes 15y ago
Yes! I've been trying to tell people this since high school almost 10 years ago. Many educators force students to submit their papres to Turnitin or else take a failing grade on the assignment (which is often a final project which can cause you to fail the course). 1. Turnitin cites fair use ("it's educational"), but one of the metrics of fair use is the extent of use (they use the whole thing), if it's used for profit (they are), and the affect of merchantability. As shady as it sounds, paper mills are not illegal, copyright infringement is. If a paper mill rejects your paper because it's been through turnitin, that hurts me as an author. 2. Another aspect of the monetization that really grinds my gears is that every paper I am forced to submit benefits turnitin by making their database larger and thus helping grant them a monopoly in this market. I am being forced to write articles for the monetary benefit of a company. If they're making money off my paper I want a cut. 3. Turnitin does not offer any way to remove one's documents from their database. If it was merely being used temporarily to compare for plagiarism against internet or book sources then that'd be reasonable. But they keep my papers forever and will continue to monetize them for years after the fact. I understand the plight of educators that want to stop plagiarism, but forcing me to irrevocably offer royalty-free licenses for my work to a for-profit company that is then charging the school (which if it is public is being funded by my tax dollars) is just insane any way you slice it. Unfortunately the courts sided with Turnitin on this issue back in 2007 and 2009 and somehow ruled that their for-profit use was fair use.
- Wingman4l7 15y ago
  More information on this unfortunate precedent-setting litigation is available on Turnitin's Wikipedia entry. I was very much dismayed but not entirely surprised by the rulings.
  - kijinbear 15y ago
    So, when you copy somebody else's work (e.g. a song) for personal enjoyment, it's an outrageous crime; but when you copy a student's essay for profit, it's fair use. You're right, it's not at all surprising.
    - 15y ago
tedunangst 15y ago
Well, since the students wouldn't provide their papers at a price TurnItIn found reasonable, TurnItIn is within their rights to just take them. Or something like that. I'm not sure if papers and movies are directly comparable.
Confusion 15y ago
The work of a student is the property of the university, like the work of an employee is the property of the employer. It's the university that (temporarily, before transferring it) owns the copyright on the paper the Ph.D. submitted. Not the Ph.D.
- akavlie 15y ago
  An employee's labor is purchased by the employer. A student in a university is not paid to attend a university however; the contrary is true. A student has far more claim on the works of professors than vice-versa.
  - Confusion 15y ago
    Hmmm, yes, I'm describing how it is in Europe, where higher education is heavily subsidied by the government and where Ph.D. students are employees of the university.
    - hkolek 15y ago
      Not in Austria (last time I checked this is in Europe). http://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10001848 http://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesn...
      - Confusion 15y ago
        Usually contractual agreements between an individual and a company, such as a university, can override the default rights granted by law. You can always sign away your rights, so we would at least need to know the default clauses in employee and university-enrollment contracts.

by sgk284 15y ago

JoachimSchipper 15y ago

Universities typically have all rights to their students' papers. I'm not sure that I'd expect privacy for college essays either, although it's a bit odd that you are technically not usually allowed to, say, post them to your blog.

wisesage5001 15y ago
Do you have any sources for the claim that universities typically have all rights to a student's papers? I can say for certain that I never signed any intellectual property agreement with the university I attended and would expect to retain all rights to any work I completed there as a student. The work I created did have an implied license allowing for grading the papers and such, but any use beyond that would upset me unless I the university had obtained my permission.
- oniTony 15y ago
  Not sure on what's typical, but my University uses a "you get to keep your IP" as a selling point; so presumably there must be enough of other institutions where this is not the case. UMissouri's attempt to claim royalties for student's in-class developed iPhone app (although later backing down and changing policies) is an interesting example of the other extreme.
- JoachimSchipper 15y ago
  From some random Googling: Duke University does not claim any rights, unless more-than-normal assistance was given (http://www.du.edu/intellectualproperty/iprop.html http://www.du.edu/intellectualproperty/iprop.html); Coventry does claim all rights (http://wwwm.coventry.ac.uk/ipr/students/Pages/FAQstudents.aspx http://wwwm.coventry.ac.uk/ipr/students/Pages/FAQstudents.as...); Waterloo does not (http://secretariat.uwaterloo.ca/Policies/policy73.htm http://secretariat.uwaterloo.ca/Policies/policy73.htm); Leeds does (http://www.leeds.ac.uk/research/hbook/ipr3.htm http://www.leeds.ac.uk/research/hbook/ipr3.htm); Glasgow does not (http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/datamanagement/creatingyourdata/intellectualpropertyrights/ http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/datamanagement/creatingyourdat...). Etc. My old university (Utrecht) did claim all rights. (Note that, where appropriate, I have considered undergraduates; PhD students are typically staff, with the attendant work-for-hire provisions.) Still, it seems that I should amend my statement to "Universities often have..." (Note that this is based on a very quick skimming, and IANAL.)

bobbles 15y ago

There was a bit of backlash when the Australian university I attended started using TurnItIn for this very reason. There was also a dubious clause in the T&C that stated something along the lines of "Copyright protection for Australian documents does not apply as TurnItIn stores all of the documents on servers in the U.S"

jbermudes 15y ago

Yes! I've been trying to tell people this since high school almost 10 years ago. Many educators force students to submit their papres to Turnitin or else take a failing grade on the assignment (which is often a final project which can cause you to fail the course). 1. Turnitin cites fair use ("it's educational"), but one of the metrics of fair use is the extent of use (they use the whole thing), if it's used for profit (they are), and the affect of merchantability. As shady as it sounds, paper mills are not illegal, copyright infringement is. If a paper mill rejects your paper because it's been through turnitin, that hurts me as an author. 2. Another aspect of the monetization that really grinds my gears is that every paper I am forced to submit benefits turnitin by making their database larger and thus helping grant them a monopoly in this market. I am being forced to write articles for the monetary benefit of a company. If they're making money off my paper I want a cut. 3. Turnitin does not offer any way to remove one's documents from their database. If it was merely being used temporarily to compare for plagiarism against internet or book sources then that'd be reasonable. But they keep my papers forever and will continue to monetize them for years after the fact. I understand the plight of educators that want to stop plagiarism, but forcing me to irrevocably offer royalty-free licenses for my work to a for-profit company that is then charging the school (which if it is public is being funded by my tax dollars) is just insane any way you slice it. Unfortunately the courts sided with Turnitin on this issue back in 2007 and 2009 and somehow ruled that their for-profit use was fair use.

Wingman4l7 15y ago
More information on this unfortunate precedent-setting litigation is available on Turnitin's Wikipedia entry. I was very much dismayed but not entirely surprised by the rulings.
- kijinbear 15y ago
  So, when you copy somebody else's work (e.g. a song) for personal enjoyment, it's an outrageous crime; but when you copy a student's essay for profit, it's fair use. You're right, it's not at all surprising.
  - 15y ago

tedunangst 15y ago

Well, since the students wouldn't provide their papers at a price TurnItIn found reasonable, TurnItIn is within their rights to just take them. Or something like that. I'm not sure if papers and movies are directly comparable.

Confusion 15y ago

The work of a student is the property of the university, like the work of an employee is the property of the employer. It's the university that (temporarily, before transferring it) owns the copyright on the paper the Ph.D. submitted. Not the Ph.D.

akavlie 15y ago
An employee's labor is purchased by the employer. A student in a university is not paid to attend a university however; the contrary is true. A student has far more claim on the works of professors than vice-versa.
- Confusion 15y ago
  Hmmm, yes, I'm describing how it is in Europe, where higher education is heavily subsidied by the government and where Ph.D. students are employees of the university.
  - hkolek 15y ago
    Not in Austria (last time I checked this is in Europe). http://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10001848 http://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesn...
    - Confusion 15y ago
      Usually contractual agreements between an individual and a company, such as a university, can override the default rights granted by law. You can always sign away your rights, so we would at least need to know the default clauses in employee and university-enrollment contracts.