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I think it's too common a sentiment that psychoactive substances like cannabis and psilocybin are harmless and in fact are good for mental health. I've had adve

I think it's too common a sentiment that psychoactive substances like cannabis and psilocybin are harmless and in fact are good for mental health. I've had adverse mental reactions to both and I would caution people with family history of anxiety.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
A lot of marijuana smokers like to pretend weed smoke is somehow less harmful than any other smoke. It's still CO whether it comes from the tobacco or hemp plant. It's still bad and creates a tar residue in your lungs. Any time I bring that up, somehow I become anti-pot even though it's a genuine concern. Edit: Carbon Monoxide, not Carbon Dioxide. And some additions since this is a tad controversial. Here is one source - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3340105/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3340105/ Marijuana inhaled is bad for your body. End of story. Let's not pretend like it's some panacea that the government doesn't want us to know about. It shouldn't be illegal, but a lot of people on here lie to themselves that somehow the harmful effects of CO aren't bad just because it's marijuana. I feel like there is some major cognitive dissonance among pot smokers equivalent to religious people that get upset when you say there is no god.
- xxpor 5y ago
  I don't think anyone who's serious doesn't think the act of burning organic matter and inhaling it is bad. That being said, pot simply has a lot less stuff in it than tobacco smoke. Also, almost no one is smoking a pack of day of joints. Fortunately there are other alternatives too, like sugar free candies.
  - olyjohn 5y ago
    You hit the nail on the head. Most people I know will smoke like half a joint in an evening and be done. Maybe take a couple bong rips. You don't sit there and smoke all night long. You'd be passed out long before you'd get through a 20 pack of joints. Meanwhile, it's super easy to pick up a pack of cigarettes and suck down 5-10 of them in an evening. Sometimes it feels like people who don't smoke really have to justify it hard. All these justifications they come up with which really aren't even an issue. Maybe they're afraid of it, and don't want to admit it... If you don't wanna smoke it, don't smoke it. There's nothing wrong with that. But some of the reasons I read to not smoke weed are ridiculous.
    - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      The duration and size of the hit does in fact matter compared to cigarettes. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3340105/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3340105/
- bittercynic 5y ago
  It is definitely still bad, but I think there is some truth there because tobacco tobacco is especially, extremely harmful.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  And that is why engineers created the vaporizer.
  - jborichevskiy 5y ago
    Eh, there's also popcorn lung to worry about. Think the research is still out on this one.
    - samatman 5y ago
      Popcorn lung is called that because of a specific adulterant which is no longer used in nicotine vapes, and was never prevalent in cannabis vapes. There is also the risk of getting an illegal cannabis cartridge tainted with Vitamin E, which can be avoided completely if one is lucky enough to live under a medicinal or recreational regime. It can't be said that vaping is completely harmless, but it's safe to say that responsible blends are orders of magnitude less harmful than inhaling smoke.
      - jborichevskiy 5y ago
        I stand corrected - thanks!
      - eurasiantiger 5y ago
        Note that the parent comment only applies to liquid vaporizers which function identically to ”e-juice” nicotine vaporizers (not Juul, which is a nicotine salt vaporizer). The safe ones typically contain cannabinoid extracts in a terpene solution. There are also vaporizers that use dry plant material directly without liquids, e.g. from Storz&Bickel, Arizer, Pax, etc.
    - rjbwork 5y ago
      Is there any research you know of on vaping of cannabis flower at sub-combustion temperatures in relation to popcorn lung (obliterative brochiolitis)?
- mkw2000 5y ago
  There's an abundance of ways to use it that don't involve smoking nowadays
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
  I won't say it's harmless, but there are material differences. Weed is an expectorant. That's why it makes you cough. So it also tends to promote the lung functions that help clean the gunk out, at least partially. Nicotine and the additives in cigarettes on the other hand suppresses these same functions. And lastly, pot smokers don't smoke nearly the same volume as tobacco smokers. So no, it's not harmless, but it is in fact less harmful, which is why people keep telling you that. Also, there's plenty of other options for ingesting THC these days.
  - jborichevskiy 5y ago
    Also more transparency and a more limited toxic ingredient list in a typical joint than a cigarette. But yes, smoking weed isn't harmless.
- morpheos137 5y ago
  CO also in weed smoke is a hell of a lot more harmful than CO2.
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
    I think the evidence of the amount of replies arguing against my comment above goes to show the amount of people that still think weed smoke vs tobacco smoke is still a legitimate argument against "weed smoke is bad for your lungs." It's really funny to see these universally come out of the woodwork every single time this gets brought up.
    - morpheos137 5y ago
      tobacco smoke is worse but obviously no smoke is good for lungs.
- burnished 5y ago
  I mean, if we want to ignore the additives and difference in typical consumption then sure they are just as bad. I think you'd get a similar reaction if you said "bikes and motorcycles both have two wheels, thus riding one has all the same risks and dangers as the other". Obviously you'd be right, you can split your skull on either, but you don't go 70+MPH on both.
- rantwasp 5y ago
  one word: edibles
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jbuhbjlnjbn 5y ago
  Weed actually contains anti-inflammatory and anti-carcinogenic components, that's why people say it is healthier then other plants when inhaled. I'm not making this up, please look for it yourself if you care for the full picture and are genuinely interested as to why people say that.
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
    This literally reads like a stoner in denial
    - jbuhbjlnjbn 5y ago
      So you don't want to check some facts, you want to stick to your personal opinion, is that what you're saying?
      - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
        It's your obligation to prove me wrong, not me prove myself wrong.
        jbuhbjlnjbn 5y ago
        You would not prove yourself wrong. You would change a viewpoint in light of new information.
bittercynic 5y ago
Maybe the people I've discussed this with are not representative, but it seems to me it's widely known that weed can lead to an anxiety event, and psychedelics are sometimes a frightening experience. Usually you'll be back to normal the next day, but will have had a memorable experience, and sometimes mushrooms produce long-term relief from depression. I'm definitely not an expert with this, but it seems to me it is often a good idea to take a chance with some carefully chosen drugs.
- fossuser 5y ago
  You're not always back to normal the next day with the more intense hallucinogens. I think bad experiences (or good, but intense experiences) and the longer term psychological recovery from them is often underrepresented online, but it does exist. The risk can be high.
  - antihero 5y ago
    I think a bad trip can be a traumatic experience like any other experience.
omgwtfbbq 5y ago
It's the same for any chemical. For the vast majority of people penicillin is a life saving antibiotic and for a small percentage it is quite deadly.
runawaybottle 5y ago
I suffer from chronic anxiety and the tales of weed just relaxing you sounded like a magic pill. It was one of the most intense anxiety inducing experiences I’ve ever had. Very unfortunate, but some people seem to manage it well. If you can barely manage anxiety on your own, weed is is a force multiplier for your fears. However, I’d be willing to try again in the future as it becomes more available in vape form and try micro dosing it. The smallest hits to see if I can get a modest calmness.
- handrous 5y ago
  > I suffer from chronic anxiety and the tales of weed just relaxing you sounded like a magic pill. It was one of the most intense anxiety inducing experiences I’ve ever had. Very unfortunate, but some people seem to manage it well. Low doses (5mg of edible or under, for me) have been amazing for my sleep and (very relatedly) anxiety. The effect of 10mg of same (yes, I know, that's lightweight amounts still) on an empty stomach were... very different. I can definitely see how that would induce anxiety. The disconnectedness and extreme short-term-memory forgetfulness was certainly alarming. I felt about as impaired as when I've been pretty damn drunk, but with a much stronger memory-related effect. Luckily, just going to sleep much earlier than I'd intended solved the problem. Unlike with alcohol, I woke up the next day feeling great, and had, surprisingly, excellent recall of the sequence of events the night before, despite in-the-moment having great difficulty remembering why I was where I was, even. YMMV, obviously, but now I know to treat an evening with higher doses (should I try that again) as rather less medicinal than a low-dose evening.
  - anxiousanon 5y ago
    > The effect of 10mg of same (yes, I know, that's lightweight amounts still) on an empty stomach were... very different. That's a really good point. I commented elsewhere in this thread, similar experience to you with small doses. I always make sure to take the stuff with food.
rantwasp 5y ago
nah. it’s not a common sentiment. people talk about set and setting + harm reduction over and over again. If you’re gonna do a drug and be reckless you’re gonna have a bad time.
anxiousanon 5y ago
Just as a counter-anecdote. There's depression and anxiety in my family tree, and it has caught up to me too in the last year. Among other remedies, I've experimented with small doses of edibles (they are legal where I live). I don't particularly enjoy the high, but for me it does take the edge off the worst times, without side effects. It lets me at least relax/sleep. (It kind of takes the edge off everything, which is why I don't like it and don't do it recreationally.) I think this is very much a YMMV situation. I certainly don't recommend it as the only solution. It has been useful to me as a medicine, though, in the same way I might take a cough suppressant during a serious cold.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  Thats kind of a funny analogy - most cough suppressant drugs are either opiates or disassociative - either of which have history of recreational use as well.
  - anxiousanon 5y ago
    That's true, interesting point. :) For me they're both strictly medicine though.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  This is a touchy subject to discuss on HN, but I’d caution you that much of the scientific literature on the topic of depression and cannabis is not positive. Obviously there is some possibility of bidirectional causation (cannabis worsens depression, depression increases cannabis consumption) but even the most “both sides” papers on the subject still lean toward cannabis worsening depression over time. This paper is a decent “both sides” overview if you can get the full text: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33332004/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33332004/ Note that the negative effects of cannabis on depression aren’t immediately obvious, as the drug itself makes users temporarily feel better. As such, people tend to associate cannabis with an immediate improvement of symptoms, yet can’t quite pinpoint the long-term downward trend in their depressive symptoms that occurs due to long-term changes of repeated consumption. There is also some concerning evidence to suggest that traditional depression treatments are less effective when someone is consuming cannabis. One of my good friends is a professional therapist who is very open about her own personal cannabis use. However, she says she spends much of her professional time convincing depression patients to stop consuming cannabis, with positive results for those who can follow through.
remir 5y ago
A past colleague of mine told me a shocking story. He was a heavy weed smoker (multiple times a day) and one evening couldn't find his weed and as he was searching for it, became increasingly furious. Eventually, he was so angry that he blanked out. He told me he found himself in a hyper lucid state, but in absolute darkness and in a state of pure dread. He felt the presense of millions of dead egos that were "roaming" like zombies in this strange environment. Some were screaming like their skin was being pulled from their body, some were tormenting others. A total nighmarish trip. He was so shocked by this experience that he stop smoking pot that very evening and never touched it again.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

A lot of marijuana smokers like to pretend weed smoke is somehow less harmful than any other smoke. It's still CO whether it comes from the tobacco or hemp plant. It's still bad and creates a tar residue in your lungs. Any time I bring that up, somehow I become anti-pot even though it's a genuine concern. Edit: Carbon Monoxide, not Carbon Dioxide. And some additions since this is a tad controversial. Here is one source - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3340105/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3340105/ Marijuana inhaled is bad for your body. End of story. Let's not pretend like it's some panacea that the government doesn't want us to know about. It shouldn't be illegal, but a lot of people on here lie to themselves that somehow the harmful effects of CO aren't bad just because it's marijuana. I feel like there is some major cognitive dissonance among pot smokers equivalent to religious people that get upset when you say there is no god.

xxpor 5y ago
I don't think anyone who's serious doesn't think the act of burning organic matter and inhaling it is bad. That being said, pot simply has a lot less stuff in it than tobacco smoke. Also, almost no one is smoking a pack of day of joints. Fortunately there are other alternatives too, like sugar free candies.
- olyjohn 5y ago
  You hit the nail on the head. Most people I know will smoke like half a joint in an evening and be done. Maybe take a couple bong rips. You don't sit there and smoke all night long. You'd be passed out long before you'd get through a 20 pack of joints. Meanwhile, it's super easy to pick up a pack of cigarettes and suck down 5-10 of them in an evening. Sometimes it feels like people who don't smoke really have to justify it hard. All these justifications they come up with which really aren't even an issue. Maybe they're afraid of it, and don't want to admit it... If you don't wanna smoke it, don't smoke it. There's nothing wrong with that. But some of the reasons I read to not smoke weed are ridiculous.
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
    The duration and size of the hit does in fact matter compared to cigarettes. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3340105/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3340105/
bittercynic 5y ago
It is definitely still bad, but I think there is some truth there because tobacco tobacco is especially, extremely harmful.
eurasiantiger 5y ago
And that is why engineers created the vaporizer.
- jborichevskiy 5y ago
  Eh, there's also popcorn lung to worry about. Think the research is still out on this one.
  - samatman 5y ago
    Popcorn lung is called that because of a specific adulterant which is no longer used in nicotine vapes, and was never prevalent in cannabis vapes. There is also the risk of getting an illegal cannabis cartridge tainted with Vitamin E, which can be avoided completely if one is lucky enough to live under a medicinal or recreational regime. It can't be said that vaping is completely harmless, but it's safe to say that responsible blends are orders of magnitude less harmful than inhaling smoke.
    - jborichevskiy 5y ago
      I stand corrected - thanks!
    - eurasiantiger 5y ago
      Note that the parent comment only applies to liquid vaporizers which function identically to ”e-juice” nicotine vaporizers (not Juul, which is a nicotine salt vaporizer). The safe ones typically contain cannabinoid extracts in a terpene solution. There are also vaporizers that use dry plant material directly without liquids, e.g. from Storz&Bickel, Arizer, Pax, etc.
  - rjbwork 5y ago
    Is there any research you know of on vaping of cannabis flower at sub-combustion temperatures in relation to popcorn lung (obliterative brochiolitis)?
mkw2000 5y ago
There's an abundance of ways to use it that don't involve smoking nowadays
jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
I won't say it's harmless, but there are material differences. Weed is an expectorant. That's why it makes you cough. So it also tends to promote the lung functions that help clean the gunk out, at least partially. Nicotine and the additives in cigarettes on the other hand suppresses these same functions. And lastly, pot smokers don't smoke nearly the same volume as tobacco smokers. So no, it's not harmless, but it is in fact less harmful, which is why people keep telling you that. Also, there's plenty of other options for ingesting THC these days.
- jborichevskiy 5y ago
  Also more transparency and a more limited toxic ingredient list in a typical joint than a cigarette. But yes, smoking weed isn't harmless.
morpheos137 5y ago
CO also in weed smoke is a hell of a lot more harmful than CO2.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  I think the evidence of the amount of replies arguing against my comment above goes to show the amount of people that still think weed smoke vs tobacco smoke is still a legitimate argument against "weed smoke is bad for your lungs." It's really funny to see these universally come out of the woodwork every single time this gets brought up.
  - morpheos137 5y ago
    tobacco smoke is worse but obviously no smoke is good for lungs.
burnished 5y ago
I mean, if we want to ignore the additives and difference in typical consumption then sure they are just as bad. I think you'd get a similar reaction if you said "bikes and motorcycles both have two wheels, thus riding one has all the same risks and dangers as the other". Obviously you'd be right, you can split your skull on either, but you don't go 70+MPH on both.
rantwasp 5y ago
one word: edibles
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jbuhbjlnjbn 5y ago
Weed actually contains anti-inflammatory and anti-carcinogenic components, that's why people say it is healthier then other plants when inhaled. I'm not making this up, please look for it yourself if you care for the full picture and are genuinely interested as to why people say that.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  This literally reads like a stoner in denial
  - jbuhbjlnjbn 5y ago
    So you don't want to check some facts, you want to stick to your personal opinion, is that what you're saying?
    - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      It's your obligation to prove me wrong, not me prove myself wrong.
      - jbuhbjlnjbn 5y ago
        You would not prove yourself wrong. You would change a viewpoint in light of new information.

bittercynic 5y ago

Maybe the people I've discussed this with are not representative, but it seems to me it's widely known that weed can lead to an anxiety event, and psychedelics are sometimes a frightening experience. Usually you'll be back to normal the next day, but will have had a memorable experience, and sometimes mushrooms produce long-term relief from depression. I'm definitely not an expert with this, but it seems to me it is often a good idea to take a chance with some carefully chosen drugs.

fossuser 5y ago
You're not always back to normal the next day with the more intense hallucinogens. I think bad experiences (or good, but intense experiences) and the longer term psychological recovery from them is often underrepresented online, but it does exist. The risk can be high.
- antihero 5y ago
  I think a bad trip can be a traumatic experience like any other experience.

omgwtfbbq 5y ago

It's the same for any chemical. For the vast majority of people penicillin is a life saving antibiotic and for a small percentage it is quite deadly.

runawaybottle 5y ago

I suffer from chronic anxiety and the tales of weed just relaxing you sounded like a magic pill. It was one of the most intense anxiety inducing experiences I’ve ever had. Very unfortunate, but some people seem to manage it well. If you can barely manage anxiety on your own, weed is is a force multiplier for your fears. However, I’d be willing to try again in the future as it becomes more available in vape form and try micro dosing it. The smallest hits to see if I can get a modest calmness.

handrous 5y ago
> I suffer from chronic anxiety and the tales of weed just relaxing you sounded like a magic pill. It was one of the most intense anxiety inducing experiences I’ve ever had. Very unfortunate, but some people seem to manage it well. Low doses (5mg of edible or under, for me) have been amazing for my sleep and (very relatedly) anxiety. The effect of 10mg of same (yes, I know, that's lightweight amounts still) on an empty stomach were... very different. I can definitely see how that would induce anxiety. The disconnectedness and extreme short-term-memory forgetfulness was certainly alarming. I felt about as impaired as when I've been pretty damn drunk, but with a much stronger memory-related effect. Luckily, just going to sleep much earlier than I'd intended solved the problem. Unlike with alcohol, I woke up the next day feeling great, and had, surprisingly, excellent recall of the sequence of events the night before, despite in-the-moment having great difficulty remembering why I was where I was, even. YMMV, obviously, but now I know to treat an evening with higher doses (should I try that again) as rather less medicinal than a low-dose evening.
- anxiousanon 5y ago
  > The effect of 10mg of same (yes, I know, that's lightweight amounts still) on an empty stomach were... very different. That's a really good point. I commented elsewhere in this thread, similar experience to you with small doses. I always make sure to take the stuff with food.

rantwasp 5y ago

nah. it’s not a common sentiment. people talk about set and setting + harm reduction over and over again. If you’re gonna do a drug and be reckless you’re gonna have a bad time.

anxiousanon 5y ago

Just as a counter-anecdote. There's depression and anxiety in my family tree, and it has caught up to me too in the last year. Among other remedies, I've experimented with small doses of edibles (they are legal where I live). I don't particularly enjoy the high, but for me it does take the edge off the worst times, without side effects. It lets me at least relax/sleep. (It kind of takes the edge off everything, which is why I don't like it and don't do it recreationally.) I think this is very much a YMMV situation. I certainly don't recommend it as the only solution. It has been useful to me as a medicine, though, in the same way I might take a cough suppressant during a serious cold.

cwkoss 5y ago
Thats kind of a funny analogy - most cough suppressant drugs are either opiates or disassociative - either of which have history of recreational use as well.
- anxiousanon 5y ago
  That's true, interesting point. :) For me they're both strictly medicine though.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
This is a touchy subject to discuss on HN, but I’d caution you that much of the scientific literature on the topic of depression and cannabis is not positive. Obviously there is some possibility of bidirectional causation (cannabis worsens depression, depression increases cannabis consumption) but even the most “both sides” papers on the subject still lean toward cannabis worsening depression over time. This paper is a decent “both sides” overview if you can get the full text: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33332004/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33332004/ Note that the negative effects of cannabis on depression aren’t immediately obvious, as the drug itself makes users temporarily feel better. As such, people tend to associate cannabis with an immediate improvement of symptoms, yet can’t quite pinpoint the long-term downward trend in their depressive symptoms that occurs due to long-term changes of repeated consumption. There is also some concerning evidence to suggest that traditional depression treatments are less effective when someone is consuming cannabis. One of my good friends is a professional therapist who is very open about her own personal cannabis use. However, she says she spends much of her professional time convincing depression patients to stop consuming cannabis, with positive results for those who can follow through.

remir 5y ago

A past colleague of mine told me a shocking story. He was a heavy weed smoker (multiple times a day) and one evening couldn't find his weed and as he was searching for it, became increasingly furious. Eventually, he was so angry that he blanked out. He told me he found himself in a hyper lucid state, but in absolute darkness and in a state of pure dread. He felt the presense of millions of dead egos that were "roaming" like zombies in this strange environment. Some were screaming like their skin was being pulled from their body, some were tormenting others. A total nighmarish trip. He was so shocked by this experience that he stop smoking pot that very evening and never touched it again.