6 ms·

This would not surprise me at all. But I'm curious to know if they got the causation backwards. Maybe people with schizophrenia just have a higher likelihood of

by warent 5y ago

This would not surprise me at all. But I'm curious to know if they got the causation backwards. Maybe people with schizophrenia just have a higher likelihood of smoking marijuana

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
micromacrofoot 5y ago
Yeah this is often the debate. Many schizophrenic people self-medicate with drugs and alcohol before they've been diagnosed, so it's very hard to get a clear picture. The "component cause" makes sense... marijuana and other psychedelics don't necessarily cause schizophrenia in most people, but for some people it may serve as a trigger. There's some evidence that trauma in childhood may have a similar impact.
sharklazer 5y ago
I'm curious about alcohol and tobacco usage as well. Tobacco usage in mentally ill has generally been higher. It could simply reflect over all trends in substance choices depending on availability. So many variables unaccounted for.
- rwnspace 5y ago
  I've heard it on good authority that schizophrenics find nicotine/tobacco significantly ameliorates their symptoms - it can be a lesser evil for some.
  - badloginnew 5y ago
    I think it’s an acetylcholine agonist or something like that.
  - InitialLastName 5y ago
    Plus, if you're going to self-medicate by building a psychological addiction, there are worse substances to do it with than nicotine. I know many alcoholics, for example, who picked up tobacco in rehab. It might not be healthy, but it can be a bit less self-destructive to your personal life.
  - eurasiantiger 5y ago
    Well, tobacco smoke is full of MAO inhibitors. I would not be surprised if it was daily abuse of tobacco and coffee that were causing mental illness.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  I have a disorder that affects perception (fortunately nothing as serious!) and nicotine absolutely helps with sensory gating. I quit smoking last year and my focus has really suffered for it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Ccecil 5y ago
I have long thought this for not just mental disorders...but also the long standing view that Marijuana use causes laziness or "makes you stupid". Perhaps these people have other issues they are self medicating for or have a higher probability of using illicit substances...for whatever reason they may be using it makes it easy to skew numbers to make it seem like the substance use is the cause, but to the user it may feel like the solution.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  ”Lazy and stupid” is a common outsider generalization of people with ADHD’s primarily inattentive variant.
badloginnew 5y ago
Like cigarettes. It seems like it could be both self medication, but also have negative side effects too. Benzodiazepines are my favorite analogy.
- martimarkov 5y ago
  Can you share that analogy? I take Benzodiazepam from time to time but never more than once every 3-4 months. Keen to learn a bit more. :)
  - curryst 5y ago
    Not OP, but benzo's can be problematic because they can exacerbate the condition they're meant to treat. I.e. they are often prescribed for anxiety, but one of the symptoms of benzo withdrawal is heightened anxiety. It creates a feedback loop where the medication builds an addiction, and the only way out of that addiction is to suffer a worse version of the symptoms you were trying to self-medicate away in the first place. I believe research has said similar of opiates. Heightened sensitivity to pain is one of the symptoms of opiate withdrawal. It stands in contrast to other medications where withdrawal isn't counter-indicated by the underlying condition. I.e. amphetamine withdrawal doesn't really exacerbate ADHD. It's not a pleasant thing, but stopping the medication only sends your ADHD back to baseline, not below. Another similarity to cigarettes and opiates is that they don't cure anything, they merely treat symptoms. Not a doctor, but I don't think you're at risk of those problems if you take them every 3-4 months. They're great for acute symptoms like that because of how effective they are. They're not good for chronic symptoms, though, because of that feedback loop.
    - samatman 5y ago
      Sorry to report this, but stimulant withdrawal absolutely exacerbates the symptoms of ADHD. Not so much with amphetamine (which is weakly reinforcing at recommended doses), but for nicotine, I know ADHD folks who have straight quit for a couple months, then go back because their life has become a complete shambles and it doesn't seem to be getting better.
jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
One of my high school friends developed severe schizophrenia in his 30s. Given hindsight it's clear to all of us that know him that some elements of it must have started all the way back at middle school. He was very into hallucinogens and doing his art, the themes of which are directly in line with his current delusions.
mpol 5y ago
Or maybe both are happening. Some people like the high from THC, which might make someone go in the direction of psychosis, it can be very stimulating. For people whith a background of psychosis, they might like the CBD part, which makes them relax and feel less stimulated and aroused.
- badloginnew 5y ago
  I think any research about cannabis that fails to distinguish thc/cbd and other important phenotypical traits of the plant will ultimately go nowhere. Thc and cbd have diametrically opposing effects. Marijuana is not one substance it is many.
  - hindsightbias 5y ago
    CBD with Delta-8 THC is all the unregulated rage now.
hindsightbias 5y ago
I don't have links but read a lot on this years ago. There were multiple UK studies that connected genetic predisposition to mental health issues to increased drug use. They're just self medicating until it doesn't work anymore. IDK why it would be dramatically different for non-genetically predisposed victims. IMO, drug use is a symptom and not the cause. That said, we didn't have 75% THC vape back in the day and now everyone is doing CBD with wonderful new Delta-8 and there's not a shred of research on it.
jklinger410 5y ago
Untreated neuro-divergent people tend to use recreational drugs for medicinal purposes. And psychoactive drug usage is directly linked with the early onset of otherwise dormant schizophrenia, as well as a myriad of other mental disorders. There is no science to state that psychoactives cause these mental disorders. In fact, current medical science states the opposite, that psychoactives do NOT cause, but exacerbate, certain mental disorders. Considering that both psychoative drug use and mental disorder rates are on the rise (some would argue due to improved screening, treatments, etc) I'm not sure how anyone could draw a conclusion from this. If they want to prove that psychoactive use can cause mental disorder, they should approach it from a bio-chemical perspective.
- riemannzeta 5y ago
  Presented for your consideration without comment: https://adai.uw.edu/pubs/pdf/2017mjbipolar.pdf https://adai.uw.edu/pubs/pdf/2017mjbipolar.pdf
  - tartoran 5y ago
    I find it somewhat funny that this is written by Susan A. Stoner, PhD, Research Consultant.
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    Pretty standard study that showing two things are correlated. The THC/CBD chart is misleading because none of the data is actually used to form the conclusions. The interesting thing is the "Use of Marijuana to Self-Medicate BD" study is useless. Monitoring a small number of bipolar people for 6 days will give you completely random results. It's too short a period to remove moods from the equation.
- thaw13579 5y ago
  To be clear, there is science that is compatible with THC increasing the risk of psychosis (and perhaps that CBD is protective). I would agree that some are self medicating, but the data also shows that dosage, THC/CBD mixture, and age of use each elevate psychosis risk over random controls [1][2]. It would be great to do double blinded experiments to test this more definitely, but we don't due to unethical reasons. I think the differential legalization will provide useful data along those lines, though it will take some years. I also think it's important to distinguish between THC "exacerbating" an existing mental illness and triggering psychosis in otherwise healthy people who have a predisposition, due to genes and early life experience. We still don't have a clear idea exactly how to say who's predisposed. Plenty of reasons to take caution, in my opinion. [1] https://www.nap.edu/catalog/24625/the-health-effects-of-cannabis-and-cannabinoids-the-current-state https://www.nap.edu/catalog/24625/the-health-effects-of-cann... [2] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(19)30048-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0...
0xdeadb00f 5y ago
Can I ask a follow up question; how would a study similar to eones like this one rule out getting their causation backwards?

by warent 5y ago

This would not surprise me at all. But I'm curious to know if they got the causation backwards. Maybe people with schizophrenia just have a higher likelihood of smoking marijuana

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

micromacrofoot 5y ago

Yeah this is often the debate. Many schizophrenic people self-medicate with drugs and alcohol before they've been diagnosed, so it's very hard to get a clear picture. The "component cause" makes sense... marijuana and other psychedelics don't necessarily cause schizophrenia in most people, but for some people it may serve as a trigger. There's some evidence that trauma in childhood may have a similar impact.

sharklazer 5y ago

I'm curious about alcohol and tobacco usage as well. Tobacco usage in mentally ill has generally been higher. It could simply reflect over all trends in substance choices depending on availability. So many variables unaccounted for.

rwnspace 5y ago
I've heard it on good authority that schizophrenics find nicotine/tobacco significantly ameliorates their symptoms - it can be a lesser evil for some.
- badloginnew 5y ago
  I think it’s an acetylcholine agonist or something like that.
- InitialLastName 5y ago
  Plus, if you're going to self-medicate by building a psychological addiction, there are worse substances to do it with than nicotine. I know many alcoholics, for example, who picked up tobacco in rehab. It might not be healthy, but it can be a bit less self-destructive to your personal life.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  Well, tobacco smoke is full of MAO inhibitors. I would not be surprised if it was daily abuse of tobacco and coffee that were causing mental illness.
BoxOfRain 5y ago
I have a disorder that affects perception (fortunately nothing as serious!) and nicotine absolutely helps with sensory gating. I quit smoking last year and my focus has really suffered for it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Ccecil 5y ago

I have long thought this for not just mental disorders...but also the long standing view that Marijuana use causes laziness or "makes you stupid". Perhaps these people have other issues they are self medicating for or have a higher probability of using illicit substances...for whatever reason they may be using it makes it easy to skew numbers to make it seem like the substance use is the cause, but to the user it may feel like the solution.

eurasiantiger 5y ago
”Lazy and stupid” is a common outsider generalization of people with ADHD’s primarily inattentive variant.

badloginnew 5y ago

Like cigarettes. It seems like it could be both self medication, but also have negative side effects too. Benzodiazepines are my favorite analogy.

martimarkov 5y ago
Can you share that analogy? I take Benzodiazepam from time to time but never more than once every 3-4 months. Keen to learn a bit more. :)
- curryst 5y ago
  Not OP, but benzo's can be problematic because they can exacerbate the condition they're meant to treat. I.e. they are often prescribed for anxiety, but one of the symptoms of benzo withdrawal is heightened anxiety. It creates a feedback loop where the medication builds an addiction, and the only way out of that addiction is to suffer a worse version of the symptoms you were trying to self-medicate away in the first place. I believe research has said similar of opiates. Heightened sensitivity to pain is one of the symptoms of opiate withdrawal. It stands in contrast to other medications where withdrawal isn't counter-indicated by the underlying condition. I.e. amphetamine withdrawal doesn't really exacerbate ADHD. It's not a pleasant thing, but stopping the medication only sends your ADHD back to baseline, not below. Another similarity to cigarettes and opiates is that they don't cure anything, they merely treat symptoms. Not a doctor, but I don't think you're at risk of those problems if you take them every 3-4 months. They're great for acute symptoms like that because of how effective they are. They're not good for chronic symptoms, though, because of that feedback loop.
  - samatman 5y ago
    Sorry to report this, but stimulant withdrawal absolutely exacerbates the symptoms of ADHD. Not so much with amphetamine (which is weakly reinforcing at recommended doses), but for nicotine, I know ADHD folks who have straight quit for a couple months, then go back because their life has become a complete shambles and it doesn't seem to be getting better.

jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago

One of my high school friends developed severe schizophrenia in his 30s. Given hindsight it's clear to all of us that know him that some elements of it must have started all the way back at middle school. He was very into hallucinogens and doing his art, the themes of which are directly in line with his current delusions.

mpol 5y ago

Or maybe both are happening. Some people like the high from THC, which might make someone go in the direction of psychosis, it can be very stimulating. For people whith a background of psychosis, they might like the CBD part, which makes them relax and feel less stimulated and aroused.

badloginnew 5y ago
I think any research about cannabis that fails to distinguish thc/cbd and other important phenotypical traits of the plant will ultimately go nowhere. Thc and cbd have diametrically opposing effects. Marijuana is not one substance it is many.
- hindsightbias 5y ago
  CBD with Delta-8 THC is all the unregulated rage now.

hindsightbias 5y ago

I don't have links but read a lot on this years ago. There were multiple UK studies that connected genetic predisposition to mental health issues to increased drug use. They're just self medicating until it doesn't work anymore. IDK why it would be dramatically different for non-genetically predisposed victims. IMO, drug use is a symptom and not the cause. That said, we didn't have 75% THC vape back in the day and now everyone is doing CBD with wonderful new Delta-8 and there's not a shred of research on it.

jklinger410 5y ago

Untreated neuro-divergent people tend to use recreational drugs for medicinal purposes. And psychoactive drug usage is directly linked with the early onset of otherwise dormant schizophrenia, as well as a myriad of other mental disorders. There is no science to state that psychoactives cause these mental disorders. In fact, current medical science states the opposite, that psychoactives do NOT cause, but exacerbate, certain mental disorders. Considering that both psychoative drug use and mental disorder rates are on the rise (some would argue due to improved screening, treatments, etc) I'm not sure how anyone could draw a conclusion from this. If they want to prove that psychoactive use can cause mental disorder, they should approach it from a bio-chemical perspective.

riemannzeta 5y ago
Presented for your consideration without comment: https://adai.uw.edu/pubs/pdf/2017mjbipolar.pdf https://adai.uw.edu/pubs/pdf/2017mjbipolar.pdf
- tartoran 5y ago
  I find it somewhat funny that this is written by Susan A. Stoner, PhD, Research Consultant.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Pretty standard study that showing two things are correlated. The THC/CBD chart is misleading because none of the data is actually used to form the conclusions. The interesting thing is the "Use of Marijuana to Self-Medicate BD" study is useless. Monitoring a small number of bipolar people for 6 days will give you completely random results. It's too short a period to remove moods from the equation.
thaw13579 5y ago
To be clear, there is science that is compatible with THC increasing the risk of psychosis (and perhaps that CBD is protective). I would agree that some are self medicating, but the data also shows that dosage, THC/CBD mixture, and age of use each elevate psychosis risk over random controls [1][2]. It would be great to do double blinded experiments to test this more definitely, but we don't due to unethical reasons. I think the differential legalization will provide useful data along those lines, though it will take some years. I also think it's important to distinguish between THC "exacerbating" an existing mental illness and triggering psychosis in otherwise healthy people who have a predisposition, due to genes and early life experience. We still don't have a clear idea exactly how to say who's predisposed. Plenty of reasons to take caution, in my opinion. [1] https://www.nap.edu/catalog/24625/the-health-effects-of-cannabis-and-cannabinoids-the-current-state https://www.nap.edu/catalog/24625/the-health-effects-of-cann... [2] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(19)30048-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0...

0xdeadb00f 5y ago

Can I ask a follow up question; how would a study similar to eones like this one rule out getting their causation backwards?